Female Bonds, Betrayals, and the Power of Estrangement

Female friendships aren't always forever—and that might be exactly how it should be. In this revealing conversation with author Susan Shapiro Barash about her new book "Estranged: How Female Friendships Are Mended or Ended," we explore the complicated reality behind those seemingly unbreakable bonds.

The statistics are striking: 88% of women have had significant problems with close friends, and surprisingly, 75% feel more obligated to stay in troubled friendships than in problematic romantic relationships. Through extensive interviews with women across America, Barash uncovered seven distinct types of friendship challenges that often lead to estrangement—from the faithless friend who prioritizes romantic interests over friendship to the jealous friend who can't celebrate your success.

What makes these relationships so difficult to end? Barash explains how cultural messages about "best friends forever" create guilt around setting boundaries, while shared history ("we've known each other since kindergarten") often keeps women trapped in unhealthy dynamics far too long. The betrayals can cut deep—stolen ideas at work, seduced partners, shared confidences broadcast widely—but women often rationalize staying despite clear evidence the friendship is harmful.

"Estranged" offers a refreshingly honest perspective on friendship breakups as potentially healthy choices rather than failures. As Barash puts it, there's "a new trend where we hit our limit and we say this isn't really a healthy friendship for me, and we estrange from a place of power and voice." The pandemic accelerated this trend, prompting many women to reevaluate which connections truly deserve their emotional investment.

Whether you're struggling with a friendship that's become one-sided, wondering if jealousy has poisoned a once-strong bond, or simply questioning why certain relationships leave you feeling drained rather than supported, this conversation offers valuable insights for navigating the complex terrain of female friendship with honesty, self-awareness, and ultimately, self-respect.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Susan Shapiro Barash
• 9:15 Why Friendships Fail and End
• 17:07 Seven Types of Unhealthy Friendships
• 26:49 Betrayal, Trust and Jealousy
• 33:40 The Power of Estrangement
• 41:34 Book Exploration and Author Background

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:05

Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva. Tonight I have with me on Zoom Susan Shapiro Barash. I think we have to emphasize your last name because while there's another, Susan Shapiro, who's also an author, right?

Speaker 3: 0:23

There's another, susan Shapiro, who's also an author. Right, yeah, I know her, and both professors and both in New York a lot in common Seen publishers for a long while.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Wow, I mean, it'd be interesting. I guess we could talk about where you grew up and what makes you you. Obviously, you wrote a different book, a Strange, which is what we're going to be talking about In terms of the show. This is 40, a female perspective, but I think when we talk about women in their 40s, we talk about identity, communication, friendship. This is a relationship show, so this book is based on female friendships, which is, you know, hollywood glamorizes it in a way, and you've obviously done a lot of research. So what inspired you to write the book?

Speaker 3: 1:33

I wanted to write this book for a long time.

Speaker 3: 1:35

So many relationships as females in contemporary American culture, starting in their 20s to their 80s, all across the country, different ages, ethnicity, race, religion, level of education, big cities, rural areas, everything in between. And what's so fascinating to me is how it really doesn't matter if you have a graduate degree from some Ivy League school or you barely got through high school. If you are having an issue with your partner, your daughter, your best friend, a colleague. We all have the same emotional longing as females for everything to go well, for the steps forward to end up rewarding us the cultural message that if we're good girls, we do the right thing, that all good will follow. And yet there are so many times when that really isn't the case and we count on our female friendships in a way that we don't count on family, because we say, look, family is assigned, Friendships are by choice. But in truth we really struggle with these friendships and I found women saying, look, it's harder to let go of a suboptimal female friend than it is to let go of a partner who's failing me.

Speaker 2: 3:01

Yeah, and I think the one thing is, when you've known that person for a long time, but it's also all it takes is just one thing to happen and it will like change your whole perspective on the person that you thought you knew. Because, like all relationships, trust is a big factor, and I was reading the part where, obviously, you're protecting the names of the characters by using different names, but this one friendship where I guess they had a falling out because of a guy, it's always a guy, isn't it Basically? Yes, yes, you know. So this girl was waiting on a call from this guy and her friend didn't tell her like that. He called, and now she's on her wedding day, right, and now it comes up, you know, and so I that's. I think a lot of people can relate now maybe to that particular incident, but something along the lines where that kind of betrayal, that level of betrayal where you feel that trust is not an issue and it's actually at the center of the problem.

Speaker 3: 4:13

It's really what we are looking for is to be very safe with these female friends, but there's so much that happens.

Speaker 3: 4:20

So I divided the book into seven different types of friends, and that was a result of the 150 women with whom I spoke that very disparate group of women, and what I was hearing was not only betrayal, but also a friend who really disparages her friend, so she doesn't treat her like an equal or the better crowd comes along. She doesn't include that friend. And, of course, there's this different view of the world that's now emerging as a deal breaker in terms of politics and vaccine and how we raise our children, in terms of medical care and I heard a lot of women talking about that having young children and saying my friend can't forgive me because I had my kids get vaccines, and so the fact is these issues end up being divisive and really ends the friendship. And you said it just takes one thing. But how about when we go on and on for years with a friend, even though we have a kind of inkling that she really isn't doing the best things for us, and then we finally say you know.

Speaker 2: 5:37

Yeah. So I know you're protecting the names, but do you feel like you've had female friendships that maybe they ended because that person betrayed your trust or they did something to make you realize that maybe we don't have the same moral, morals or values in terms of like how we treat people, because your friends are a reflection of you, like I remember my mom always saying this your friends will take you, but they won't take you back. When you're younger, you don't realize how friendship can end and like how they're a reflection of you, right?

Speaker 3: 6:14

So and also the idea that the cultural message has been that these best friends are forever.

Speaker 3: 6:22

And what I'm really saying is that there is a new trend and that is one where we hit our limit and we say this is really a healthy friendship for me and we estranged from a place of power and voice, not where we're deflated and heartbroken it's not that there isn't grief when the friendship ends because we're so invested in their very deep relationships but to be able to say you know what this doesn't work, and I say I'm finished and feel good about it. And it's really also self reflective because we're saying you know who am I to keep this going. Because we're saying you know who am I to keep this going? She stole my idea at work, she stole my love interest, or she didn't tell me the truth about this, or she didn't invite me here. Whatever it is that precipitates this incredible realization that I might be better off without this. It's really a new trend and the other part of it is if we are able to lead, then we get the chance to have better friendships in the future.

Speaker 2: 7:31

Yeah, you know what. We spend so much time with certain friends. I think the idea is letting go. That's the hard thing, and from what I've read about your book is that it's more of investigation into friendships and the different kinds of friendships we have, and the book is an is a way to let go of that person or, you know, help you navigate whether or not you want to keep that person in your life. It's like you don't want to let go because it's comfortable. Right? That's the hardest thing, right? The?

Speaker 3: 8:05

other part about letting go for women is that women often are part of a group and if we let go of one person in the group, we're really jeopardizing our own status within the group and the belonging might be threatened too. Can I really belong here? If you know? Let's just call her. You know Alicia and I know because all seven of us have been friends or you know X amount of women for so many years and I did interview women where they talked about estranging or being estranged. Sometimes you're the estranger and sometimes you're the estranging, meaning this friend has pushed you away, but like, where do we fit in once? That balance is changed? So there's a lot at stake in estranging and women often stay too long, and that's what I'm really hearing is changing.

Speaker 2: 9:06

Yeah, you know, what's interesting is the examples you talk about in the book is strange. Like the unhealthy friendships, right, the faithless friend, I guess always there until a third party drives a wedge between you. So I guess in a group friendship that would be bad. It's interesting you talk about that because I had a group of friends and two of the close friends, let's say Amy and Janice, you know they had a falling out and I was in the middle and it made things so complicated when it was my birthday it became a huge issue between who's coming to the birthday party now and who's not going, and it was hard because you don't know, you were in the middle and you felt as if you had to choose.

Speaker 2: 9:55

Yeah, I did. I felt like I had to choose and then, either way, someone's not going to be happy because one of my friends came to my birthday dinner and the other one didn't, because they didn't want to see the other person right?

Speaker 3: 10:07

so and you're entitled to be friends with both of them. So it's very triangulated. Yeah, those situations the faithless friend one of my categories is often about something getting between the closeness of the two friends. Many times and you mentioned this before many times it's a love interest. Perhaps you end up with someone new and that person doesn't really like your friend, and so the demand really, whether it's explicit or implicit, is that you're not with that friend as much because your new love interest doesn't really like it. Right, so put it, put in those situations.

Speaker 3: 10:50

And then we also have the friend who and this is a time you know, a timeless story, and that is what one verse she's your friend, but she's actually jealous. Yeah, and that chapter I call the green-ed friend, and it happens a lot and it might not be obvious that she's jealous, but in the stories I uncovered it was really interesting because the women would say you know, I didn't think she was jealous. We were in school together, we were in grad school together, whatever, you know, we were together for a long time, but then I ended up getting this plum job, or I ended up earning so much more money, or I ended up getting married and I have a baby and she's still single. Whatever it is, the jealousy and envy starts to be part of the picture.

Speaker 2: 11:41

Yeah, yeah and I think I've seen this before where if your friend is jealous it's not a good sign.

Speaker 3: 11:48

It's your friends are supposed to support you, even to be happy for your success, but many times it isn't the case, and that's something that we really have to face, because the women in this chapter told me that they were uneasy when they explained their good news to the group and they knew that perhaps two people in the group would be very jealous. It made them very uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 12:16

So it's more or less. Do you want to tell that person or like I feel like we have different friends for different reasons. Right, we have really close friends where you can share anything with them, or you have friends that you just hang out and talk about certain things, not so personal in that way, but the one friend that you mentioned here, the wayward friend, drawn to questionable or dangerous behavior.

Speaker 3: 12:41

Well, that's a really tricky category because, yeah, dangerous behavior. Well, that's a really tricky category because the women whom I spoke for that chapter were describing a friend with whom they had, you know, great closeness and often a history, who maybe that friend was now doing drugs or had a drinking problem or a gambling problem, an addiction, anorexia perhaps. And those women were just saying that they were very conflicted because they didn't want to be an enabler but they cared so much about the friend that they didn't want to turn their back on her, but she needed help beyond what they could do. And so do you leave that friend or do you stay and take on that daunting task of really getting her the right help?

Speaker 2: 13:30

Yeah, I think if it's toxic and it's not helping you, you can only help someone so much because we all have to help ourselves too. But I think that's a really hard decision to make with that kind of friendship. I actually had wayward friend. This was someone I knew like when I was in university and I met her at an event and she wasn't dangerous with her like eating habits or what, but it was who she would bring to an event and I remember going to this party with her.

Speaker 2: 14:01

I was always this more sociable one and I told her not to bring this guy and I don't know, I just had this feeling like gut feeling. I'm like this is not a good person to hang around with. And lo and behold, he came to the party and then we ended up at another place and we didn't go home as planned and so ended up out of the city and then we both have work in the morning and I was just so upset at the end of the night with her because she put me in a situation where it wasn't good.

Speaker 2: 14:41

You know what I mean the other, the other friend, the friend.

Speaker 3: 14:46

You are put in a position that is not only wrong for you but not healthy for her and for you as someone close to her, and so it's really untenable. And in some of these interviews the women said I just had to let it go and others had certain requirements, like there was one you know in the book I have, she said. She said so. Even though I had many interviews that are short vignettes, I do have per chapter one long interview where both sides spoke to me, both friends, oh, wow, yeah, which was really really fascinating as a journalist to listen to, and very poignant stories.

Speaker 3: 15:34

And in this chapter, this section on the wayward fringe, the two women named Brittany and Celine said to me it all works as long as the friend who has the drug problem is sober, but the friendship is put in jeopardy and that's when really the healthier friend is put in a terrible position. So we have to really think about what we can and can't do for our friends in any of these categories, yeah, and for ourselves, as you said before, you know when do we leave a very unhealthy friendship? When we really have enough self-knowledge and self-honesty to say you know what. This shouldn't be this way. You would say it in a romantic relationship, I'm not getting what I need, or I'm walking on eggshells, or she did this to me and I have to face it. That's when we evolve and we end up estranging.

Speaker 2: 16:32

I think when you're young, you're so hopeful. Those are the times when you're like, oh, you know, this is a, you know, a good friend. You always have a good time. But then when you get into those situations over and over again where it's like the drama you know, right, right, and the justification.

Speaker 3: 16:53

So many women said to me oh, our parents have been friends, our mothers are friends, our grandmothers knew each other, we grew up in the same town, we went to the same college, we went to the same church. As if this, like common experience, would justify some really egregious situations where the friend has really not been an authentic friend.

Speaker 2: 17:20

So if they didn't have those strong ties to that friend, would they still be friends with them?

Speaker 3: 17:26

Some would, because, beyond the fact that maybe your mothers knew each other, there is the fact that the two of you have shared all this, these experiences in this history.

Speaker 3: 17:38

But there is a lot of excuse making in these friendships where women say I want to leave, but you know, we have known each other since kindergarten, or we met when we were both pregnant, or we met when we were getting married or divorced. But there's some stories in this book, if I say so myself, that just were amazing. I interviewed a woman who had grown up in the same church, one that was very demanding and they had taken she and her friend had taken a very different view of what adult life would look like for each of them, even though they had shared the mores and beliefs of the church, and that was a real deal breaker. And they actually had a very civilized kind of divorce, I'll call it where they said you know, you're on a different path now than I. I have stayed with this church and you have not, and it's time to go.

Speaker 3: 18:41

And that doesn't always happen. You know, there's some ghosting in this book where friends just do the slow fade or the ghosting, the whole ghosting thing, I don't know. Like I mean, you know there's some ghosting in this book where friends just do the slow fade or the ghosting.

Speaker 2: 18:49

The whole ghosting thing, I don't know. Like, I mean, you don't always want to do that, right, and I guess there's a proper way to do things, especially if you have a really good friend. And it's interesting. I remember this one friend of mine that what did I meet her? Oh, I met her at York and yeah, we were good friends, friends, but for me it felt like we barely saw each other. She was always busy and I'm like to me, if I have a friend, we should at least be able to see each other. Like, even once in a while you can't be that busy.

Speaker 2: 19:20

And so I think I ended it abruptly, not really explaining myself, because I felt like I was giving more to the friendship and I just said, you know, I don't think this is going to work. And I think for her she wanted me to maybe explain myself better. But I was like, what else could I say to you? Like, I try to meet up and it's not happening. I mean, if I had to do it again, I probably would have explained it better. But, like you said, it's one of those things where sometimes we act abruptly, but sometimes it's for the best right.

Speaker 3: 19:51

Yeah, I think that what you're talking about is the kind of mutual respect, and I looked into that and sometimes one friend really doesn't respect the other friend's time or expectations in the same way, and so we have a situation where you don't feel like you count, and that's a very difficult place to be in a friendship.

Speaker 1: 20:16

Diva Tonight Glamour for your ears. This is 40, a female perspective.

Speaker 3: 20:23

You know, I also looked per chapter. While this book is about friends and, as we said earlier, friends we get to choose, not like family, we're assigned. But I did want to interview one sister story per chapter, because years ago I had done a study on sisters, called Sisters Devoted or Divided, called Sisters Devoted or Divided, and I found that if a woman is very close to her sister or sisters, she doesn't always have the same need for closeness and bonding with female friends. So I wanted to hear about the female friendship versus sisters. So the sisters who had had a breakup often felt very much that they were pushed together only because they were a family and that they, you know, sort of woke up and said wait a second, we've been forced to be together, but now we're adult women and just because we're sisters, there's the opposite of friendship where we say you know, I choose you, I select this friendship to be ours.

Speaker 2: 21:26

That's a very interesting perspective. I think I'll have to read about that, because I have four sisters and I'm the oldest, yeah, and so sometimes I say this as a joke when I'm not getting along with one sister, there's another sister I can talk to. But that aside, I do want to bring up your stats. Obviously, you've done a lot of research, and you said your background is in journalism, but I do want to mention some of the statistics that you've gathered from your interviews. 88% of women have had a problem with a close friend.

Speaker 3: 22:04

And let me explain that this research is reflective of the 150 women with whom I spoke for the book and then, at the end of the book, I did a questionnaire of another 111 women. So this is the result, and 55% told me that they felt obligated to stay in these friendships and not be able you know, more obligated to stay than, say, if they were married or in a love relationship.

Speaker 2: 22:32

So 75% feel more obligated to stay with a female friend than a partner or a husband. Why do you think that?

Speaker 3: 22:41

Again it goes to this myth that we've all been fed or taught that best friends forever is our banner and that failing at that or losing that best friend would be so complicated and so antithetical to the way that we've been taught and we trust these friends and we don't expect betrayal. We don't expect them to lie to us, we don't expect them to be hierarchical. So because of the expectation, women really feel as if they just have to hang in, even if it's really not a good friendship or a healthy one.

Speaker 2: 23:25

So, because we're talking about the female perspective, there's one thing I want to ask you, because you've interviewed women 150, would you do this with men? Have you thought about that from a male point? Because I find that male friendships are a little bit different in the sense that there's so many things you know, bros, before you know. I'm not going to say the word, but I find that I think men are more laid back with their friendships than women are and, like women are more emotional, right when it comes to certain things, like you know what I mean. Like you said that the male always intervening like oh, we both like the same guy, you know that creates the drama and that's where issues lie. Or the betrayal, because you stole my idea or you're I had. You know everything you've mentioned. I've had a friend where that has happened and it's kind of like dawn on me. I'm like why am I investing time in this person? You know.

Speaker 2: 24:20

I think the answer is in several I know I asked you more than one thing so so number one.

Speaker 3: 24:29

First of all, let me just say let's not do a book on men, because male friendships it would be. I never for any of my nonfiction. The only way I can report about men is through the women who speak of men, my interviewees. And I think that if I wanted to write a book on male friendship, which I don't, that it would end up being a pamphlet because there's not much to it. They don't hold the bar as high men and we live in a patriarchy and we'll die in a patriarchy, and in a patriarchy there is male power over female power, as we know, and male supremacy. So men don't look and again, I haven't interviewed men, but I would contrast it this way Men don't expect as much because so much is given to them.

Speaker 3: 25:19

In a patriarchal culture, women really go deep and exchange ideas and trade secrets and this is supposedly a very safe place for us within a male-dominated culture. And that's why you know, the idea that you can leave a friend if it's not healthy is trending now and estranging is trending now and that we will do better with more self-awareness, that the next friendship is really meaningful. Because I'm not saying we don't need these friendships. Compared to say what men need, I'm saying that we have to make sure that they really resonate for us.

Speaker 2: 26:05

Yes, and that's true. I think reflecting on certain relationships is important and as we get older women in their forties, their fifties and so on and so forth we realize that we don't need as many friends as maybe we had when we were younger. We just need good friends, friends who are going to support us with our dreams, who are positive reinforcement in our lives, and people who are going to accept us for our flaws, because as human beings, we're not perfect. We all make mistakes and it's the journey right and not the destination. We've talked a lot about the book, but you know, susan, you are the person behind this book. A little bit about you. You said you're, you're in New York, right?

Speaker 3: 26:51

And I am actually. The book just came out, so I'm touring in Florida right now, in South Florida, and then I go back to Connecticut and New York and I'll be touring there. I'll do the Jersey Shore. This is my 18th book including oh my gosh, thank you, so a magical number.

Speaker 3: 27:11

And I, for until COVID, I taught over 20 years at Marymount Manhattan College in the writing department, but gender was my topic, and so I have long been invested in learning how women feel, versus the faces we wear, versus how we really feel as mothers and daughters, as single women, as colleagues and rivals and lovers and wives, and mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law.

Speaker 3: 27:42

What is it we're really looking for, and at what price do we pay for some of these relationships to work? So I've done three studies on the role of wife in America and I did a 30-year study on female infidelity that ended up being an iHeart podcast two years ago, and I wrote a book called Tripping the Prom Queen the Truth About Women and Rivalry, where I really looked at how, again, a patriarchal culture puts women in competition against each other, always about the limited goods for women, and again that goes right back to female friendships. Why are these friendships so important to us and why, when they fail us, do we need to leave? Because we, as females, are put through so much and we endure and we're acrobatic and we're multitaskers and solution oriented, and we were five hats in one day. So in the end, the friendships are more meaningful than ever.

Speaker 2: 28:47

Yes, they are. And, um yeah, congrats on your 18th book. So it's a strange how strained female friendships are mended or ended.

Speaker 3: 28:57

So it came out well, today's the night, yeah, april 1st, and you said you should be at your indie bookstore, or definitely online and amazon, of course yeah, we've become the digital age and so, yeah, this is amazing.

Speaker 2: 29:12

I can't wait to read more of the book. You know, there's one thing I have to say Someone said this to me and I don't know if you've noticed this but I feel like technology has affected us in many ways. But I think people are going back to the book, like a lot of people now are reading paper copies, like I think there's been more of an interest for the paper copy versus the digital copy of books. And how do you feel about that? Do you think it's true?

Speaker 3: 29:41

Writers always want people to get their information however they can. So I'm a digital, I'm in favor of audio. Nothing like picking up the book, nothing. Yes, a visceral experience. We really feel it, we read it, we have it in our hands in a certain way. But I just am so excited when I have a stack of books to read. I just love the real thing.

Speaker 2: 30:08

Yeah me too, as someone who was an avid reader and my favorite place was the library when I was a kid. And I think when you look back and you reflect I'm sure you have as well when you're a kid and there's so many possibilities. When you look back, it's like what did I like to do Right and what brought me joy? And so the fact that you've written another great book and you're promoting it in Florida, as you said, so this is like a journey. Did you like to read a lot when you were a kid or were you more?

Speaker 3: 30:41

of a writer. Both Couldn't write enough, couldn't read enough and to this day I almost lost it. I'm not reading, and I love to read all different types of writers. I think we learned so much. Books are just so rich.

Speaker 2: 30:57

They offer us so much in life Is it hard to ask Do you have a favorite author? Because I know that's always a hard question, like you know it's a hard question because I admire so many writers.

Speaker 3: 31:09

I've been running a book club and we've read some really good fiction this year, so I could just tell you that we read Beatrice Williams' latest novel and Roxanna Robinson's, and, of course, I love the classics. I will go back to any Edith Wharton novel at any given time and Jane Austen and I think Henry James was a great writer. I tried to read a very diverse group of writers in terms of style and story. We learned so much and there are so many different ways to tell the tale. So it's great to be able to read something that got so many people through COVID.

Speaker 3: 31:55

And that makes me think of one thing I wanted to say and that is you know, during COVID, based on my interviews which I wrapped up last year and did for a few years, I think that that was the time when people said you know, I don't see this friend anymore and I'm really reevaluating the friendship I now that COVID was such a frightening and unexpected event in all our lives that a lot of us afterwards shapeshifted in terms of friends and family and work and love and what we owe ourselves and what we owe each other, and some of my interviewees talked about it being a time to bond, and some of them said it was a time to clean their closet. So you get the whole pendulum swinging, but it just woke us up on so many levels, right. It made us self-reflect.

Speaker 2: 32:54

It was a hard time, but you're right, it's thanks to COVID. I started this podcast. More seriously, I did the work and so, like you said, the downtime was either a moment of reflection and like let's do this, like go out there and do what you said you wanted to do for so long, or it was a bit of both. You know what I mean, so I'm glad you did the research.

Speaker 3: 33:14

Yeah, it jumpstarted a lot of our reactions, including to do something as great as your podcast. Thanks To take a look at our relationships. You know I saw a lot of research on how marriages were affected by COVID too, and it certainly affected female friendships. It's certainly affected female friendships, but this has been long in the works, the idea that we face our female friendships and face ourselves, and we've seen it with celebrity culture breakups, and we've seen it in literature and in, you know, on film, and we all have read at some point. You know Archie comics, for instance. Are you a Betty or Veronica? Do they backstab enough? Well, yeah, practically every issue. And so we we really understand the setup.

Speaker 3: 34:10

The setup is there are mixed messages for women in many areas of our life, and one of the mixed messages is and this is really interesting because when I worked on my first book on female friendship called Toxic Friends, I was taking the bus down Lexington Avenue to teach at Marymount and up Third Avenue to get back to my apartment after, and one day I swear on the bus I heard two young women say can you believe she did that to me about one of their friends, and then on the return bus ride I heard two women a little older, a little bit more seasoned, I think in their 40s say what would I do without my best female friends, without my best girlfriend? Say what would I do without my best female friends, without my best girlfriends? And there's the rub we are taught to be surprised but also to understand that someone will do something pretty wretched and at the same time, to believe that without our friends we would be unanchored.

Speaker 2: 35:13

Yes, those are some interesting perspectives. I find, you know, whenever you're on the bus, there's always very interesting conversations. You know you heard like two sides of friendships all in both trips. Humans are very interesting beings and this is as a result the book has transpired and I think, in many ways, even each chapter is helpful in a way where it will help us understand the female perspective on friendship because, like you said, friendships are really important and I remember this.

Speaker 2: 35:51

You know the friendship bracelet, like it was such a big thing when we were kids, like who's your best friend? And I think now, as I'm older, I don't know if I think I have a best friend. I have a really, really good friend that I trust a lot, and you know, it's like 20 years and once you get to that point, it's like you're you're hoping this is your friend for for life, and so I appreciate you taking the time to talk about your book and your book tour. I hope it goes well. It sounds like it's going to be fun and, yeah, I'm gonna get the book for sure, because I like having a hard copy.

Speaker 3: 36:28

Thank you so much. I wanted to add one thing. You know you said that you hoped each chapter would illuminate these situations. But on, actually at the end of each chapter, I listed a few questions that we can consider in approaching this type of friend. So, for instance, in the faithless friend, at the end I say do you believe that your expectations are too high? Friendships shift with time and circumstances, is my answer. If you cannot adjust and be flexible, you might be contributing to the friction between you and your friend. Another question why are you holding on to a friend who is not interested in you anymore? And I say, we fantasize about a perfect, best friendship as much as we do about a perfect partner. This sentiment contributes to why we cling when the friendship is waning and our friend is not giving back. So I'm trying to give some perspective that will guide us.

Speaker 2: 37:30

Yeah, I think we all need a little guidance. Sometimes it's sometimes it's the written word that will help us, or just hearing the advice, because you know what? Sometimes people will give you advice and then you're like you're still contemplating it. But I think this, this is definitely yeah, this will definitely help, because there's so many stories, you know characters that we can relate to and then we realize that, yeah, it's time to end this friendship like it's hard, that's the hard part by because friendships are like marriage, it's like this person. You spend so much time with them.

Speaker 3: 38:04

Yeah, no question deep, deeply invested in the friendships. Yeah, and sometimes the friend has done something so reprehensible. I interviewed several women where the friend had seduced the boyfriend, the husband. Really tough stories really, where the truth is stranger than fiction. So the level of betrayal. A lot of women spoke about being on a team at work with someone who was a very dear friend, a close friend, and then the idea of being, you know, presented as this woman's when friend. And then the idea of being, you know, presented as this woman's when. In fact it was the other woman who confided on going to put the words to the book to our boss on Tuesday. But on Monday this friend said here's my new idea. So really, you know where you have to say to yourself are you kidding? This is time to the time to go.

Speaker 2: 38:57

Yeah, what do you think? Ok, one more question what do you think about having a friend at work? Because work is a touchy subject. There's been this whole thing even online.

Speaker 3: 39:09

Now it's very trendy about keeping your personal life separate from your work and not co-mingling the two life separate from your work and not co-mingling the two like, yeah, to have those boundaries so that what I just described doesn't happen where you know, that's the thieving trend. I think that work is so much a part of our lives, it takes so much of the day that it's hard not to become close with colleagues. So that part is really understandable that we just do sort of cotton to colleagues, to people at work. But the trust factor really is a part of it. And I also interviewed a woman who confided to her work friend that her divorce was a disaster and then the friend let everyone know, you know, and said, oh well, I thought everyone knew it anyway. So you're opening yourself up for more betrayal.

Speaker 3: 40:10

But you're also in a place where it's hard to sort of not to become close because of the time and shared experience. So maybe have your radar up, your antenna up and your radar honed. But also understand that it's natural to want to be friends with people. You spend a lot of time, so it's complicated so much.

Speaker 2: 40:34

Yeah, yeah there's not just one simple answer to this one. You know what I mean, cause some people find they're really good friends at work and I have to like I mean we don't work together anymore, but one of my closest friends I met working at Ikea. So you know, sometimes it's like yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:51

And then what about young mothers or mothers older children, mothers or mothers, older children, and they bond. But there's often a lot of competition about mothers, about their children or about their lives. So again, you know, there's that friction. But this book is really about our close, close friends. It's not about acquaintances, it's about people where we've really put in the time and shared the our feelings, and then something serious goes wrong.

Speaker 2: 41:20

Thank you so much, susan, it was a pleasure. Yeah, I just want to say to the guests send us, send me a text or text the show. The site is diva tonight dot buzzsproutcom. I haven't had anyone text the show, so hopefully this conversation about friendship will spark your interest to text the show. Make sure you follow Susan Barash on Instagram. You're on Instagram as well, right, yeah? And then, if you plan on, reading the book is strained. I think this is a book that many women will definitely relate to in many ways. So, thank you, you're welcome. I'm Carlene and this is Diva Tonight with Susan Barash, or should I say Susan Shapiro Barash.

Speaker 1: 42:10

Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back. Send us a message on Instagram at diva underscore tonight.