How Speaking Up About Mental Health Changed Our Lives- Cathelina Duvert

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We talk with author and educator Cathelina Duvert about lifelong depression, the courage to speak after years of silence, and how therapy and small daily practices shifted her life. We also explore her novel The Box, the craft behind self-publishing, and the role of family in healing.

• naming hidden depression and early signs
• building a sister-and-cousin support circle
• talk therapy as structure for reflection
• five anchors: writing, exercise, meditation, affirmations, motivation
• giving yourself grace on skipped days
• self-publishing process and working with an editor
• themes in The Box and reader takeaways
• culture, legacy, and future thriller project
• where to find the book in print, ebook, and audio

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https://www.instagram.com/cathelinaduvert

https://cathelinaduvert.com

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Transcript

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Welcome And Topic Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:01

You're listening to Diva Tonight with Carleen Humphrey, a relationship podcast with a focus on life, love, and friendship. Welcome to Diva Tonight.

Carlene 0:13

Hi, I'm Carleen, and this is Diva Tonight, the podcast about relationships, friendships, and a focus on women in their 40s. So tonight I have with me Kathleen Drevera.

Living With Lifelong Depression

Carlene 0:28

She is an author, blogger, and recovering depressive. But is it on like when you say recovering, do you feel like you it ever goes away? Right.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

I'm I'm talking about that I I've I've been depressed, I'm still depressed, but not as much as I used to. So I'm recovering.

Carlene 0:48

Yeah. No, I you know what? Not to jump right in, but I think a lot of people don't always clue in that they're depressed. When I heard you talking about it, because you said you've been dealing with this since you were 11 or 12 years old, and your sister helped you. So with me, I think I go through periods of it with my own mental health journey. But the one thing is that like I feel like we ignore the signs, like just going through the motions in life, because I've done some group therapy. It was like a virtual class, but eight-week course, and then there was other people there, an instructor. But like when they point out like all the signs, um, it it wasn't until then that I was like, wow, I was depressed. I didn't really clue into that. And so can you relate with that? You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I I think I can because if you are so used to feeling a certain way, then you sort of think, well, that's just me. Not necessarily it's not supposed to be like this, but that's just the way I deal with things. So I think that's why we probably ignore the signs because we're used to what we're dealing with and and and it's hard to measure. Is this the norm? Well, is this might be the norm for me and not the norm for somebody else? And and when we think it's the norm for ourselves, we're not looking at it as in terms of I I must be depressed. There must be something wrong here. Yeah.

Carlene 2:16

I think there's a lot of things that can make you depressed too, like um your work environment, if it's very toxic, um, home, like everything all in one. But I think dealing with and like doing the things with it, like for you, since you've been dealing with it for a very long time and you found ways to handle those low points. Why do you think you've started to talk about it in an open forum?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Oh, that's such a good question. I feel like I I I've always been somebody who okay, so then there there's the shy, introverted Kathy, and then there's the the person who, you know, just blurts things out about myself, you know. And I I tend to feel comfortable sharing about myself to people I don't even know sometimes. And I feel like a part of me when I was going through the depression, I kept it silent for so long. I kept it to myself for so long because I didn't even know what I was going through. And sometimes I was very ashamed of it that when I became aware of what I was dealing with and what I was going through and how I was helping myself overcome it, I think I was just like ready to tell my story. Anyone who will listen, I I talk about my journey with mental health, and I feel like it comes from a place where I did not talk about it at all. Like I've been silent for too long. Now I need to open up about it. That's how I feel.

Carlene 3:48

No, I think that's important because I think when we're quiet, like we're keeping it to ourselves. It's more internal. But I think if if you talk about it, then whoever's listening, if they're dealing with it, they might find the courage to actually get some help because I think it's one of those things where your if your sleep is affected, um, you're just going through the motions. You have no desire to go out like with your friends or do anything social. You're just basically going through the motions and other things start to impact that, I think. Yeah. Oh, like you're yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

And I also feel like for me, it was also cathartic. Just talking about it, letting it out. You know, I I call it like letting go of the depression monster, just just just getting rid of all of that, you know, talking about it, I feel is cathartic. It it kind of helps me to deal with what I wasn't able to deal with before.

Carlene 4:45

Mm-hmm.

Naming The Signs And Stigma

Carlene 4:46

I think, I think now we are in a digital age where there's information overload and and you know, we have to figure out ways to find things that work for us, right? And so on your journey, what did you learn that worked for you when you're dealing with those days, those those sad days, you know, those days where you just can't.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

You know, it's it's it's so funny because when when you're in the in it, and I'm sure you can relate to this, when you're in it, you know that you may know that you're in this bad place, but it's so hard to mentally get out of it, right? You know that that you have to get out of this in some way and somehow, or maybe you just feel like I'm just gonna ride ride this through. But one of the things that really helped was the fact that I did have my sister and my cousins helping me through through it all. You know, one of my cousins suffers with depression as well. And sometimes, you know, we would all get together. There's like three cousins, there's my sister, and then there's myself. And sometimes we would get on the phone with each other and and and tell each other what what helps with feeling better, or you know, talk about uh meditations that worked for us, or you know, we would also challenge each other to working out and stuff like that. So a lot of those things, being able to talk to somebody, but having my my sister's sister network, you know, my my network of of my cousin and my sister, and you know, having them there helping me through it, being able to talk to them, them being my sounding board, I think that really, really helped. So number one thing, I feel like it's so important that you find somebody that can relate to you. If if you know somebody who will be able to help you, but they necessarily cannot relate to you, that's okay too, as long as you have a sounding board, somebody to listen to. And I feel like that that's what that was like the number one factor in helping me um deal with this.

Carlene 6:44

Yeah, that's a good thing that you have your sister who's kind of like your support system, but she's also been there to help you find the resource, you know what I mean? Because finding a therapist and and and starting off with there and then finding other places where you can excel, you know what I mean? And clearly you're an author. And so, did you go to school for for literature, writing? I I know you're a teacher, so to say the least, you you you're both. So I guess you're an educator and you're also an author.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

And I I study creative writing and literature when I was in college, and my my dream was to be a world-famous author. I was gonna travel the world reading about, you know, reading from my books. I'm not there yet, but yeah, I studied creative writing and literature. I've always loved reading, I've always loved writing, and so this was a part of me already. So to write about my journey was something that came naturally to me. And when I decided to write my blog called Kathy's Cross about my dealings with depression and how I helped myself overcome it, it just seemed like, yes, this is this is the the right trajectory, this is where I should be going, this is what I should be doing with this, right? So it was very natural for me. And then it it took me a very long time. It took me about 25 years or so to finally publish my novel. I started it when I was in in my mid-20s. And when I decided to finally publish it,

Finding Voice And Sharing Publicly

SPEAKER_02 8:17

I had to first figure out how am I gonna finish the story and who how am I gonna get it prepared and ready for it to be published. Because when I decided to self-publish it, I wanted it to be the best book that it can be, and not, you know, one of those self-published books that have a lot of grammatical mistakes and stuff like that. So I really took my time with that and I found the right editor. And, you know, I I just I just did all the things that I felt like I needed to do in order to get myself prepared for it. But yeah, writing about my journey, writing about depression has has always been something that came naturally to me.

Carlene 8:51

That is so interesting because I think with writing, a lot of people think that this is something that will happen overnight. But when you talk about how long it took you and like the just the process over time, it kind of reminds me of like when I went to a film, like when when I used to go to TIFF, you know, the film festival, and like that was my passion for a little time. Like for six years, me and my friend would go. And but where I'm going with this is that when you sit in front of the the director who directed the film and you hear their story, like I remember being at the movies parkland, and he I guess he worked for a newspaper or whatever he did in the past. But he said, This film took me 10 years to work on, you know, 10 years. So it took him 10 years to to write it, probably to find the cast, the actors, to get the studio to give him the rights to, you know, broadcast it, right? And have it play at a film festival. So it's always the the backstory that you hear um when people are creating something. And so even for you, this is this might not be your you know, your debut, but it's you're the beginning of like your future of where you you could go from here. And and you know, um it's amazing, right? And so kudos to you because I I think it's a lot of work to write a book. I think they say it's more for you, not about the money or anything else. And and do you find that yourself?

SPEAKER_02 10:20

It's absolutely for me because I I have not really even considered the the idea of making all that money back to a fault. I think I probably would have done more, you know, in terms of trying to promote it, getting it out there. Uh my shyness gets in the way too. Like I I I could have easily gone to different, you know, independent bookstores or even like places like Barnes and Noble and be like, well, I just wrote a book and you know, just like propose the idea of sign having a book signing there or something, but uh sometimes I get a little bit too much in my own bubble and very, very shy, and so I don't promote it as much as I should. But the novel was definitely something that I really needed to get out into the world for myself. And of course I want people to read it. Of course I want to make money off of it, but that wasn't the main focus. My main focus was just getting it done and getting it out there.

Carlene 11:14

Yeah. Do you feel like that's your legacy? Like that's what you want to leave behind? Like, you know, we all have our, you know, sometimes some of our us creatives, you know, like what what is what will be my legacy when I'm no longer here, you know?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

That's such a great question because I didn't I I haven't thought about my legacy. I'm I was just happy that I finally published it. But I do want that to be part of my legacy, not just my only one, right? Because I do have other projects in my mind that that that projects that I'm working on that I want to see to fruition, that I want to see it see it till the end. And to me, they're important projects, you know, regarding my my cultural identity, me as a Haitian American person. I want to move things out that that really lends itself to the the culture of the literature of of my Haitian people and all that. So I do want to bring more things out there. So my legacy, I guess, would be part of my writing, my creative work and my my creative projects. Yeah.

Carlene 12:16

Yeah. So the box, you know, you published it, it debuted

Support Systems And Sister Network

Carlene 12:20

on uh July 2nd in 2024. And you know, it's a year later, a little over a year now. And so did you have like numbers in mind of like, oh, I want to, you know, you said you said you said earlier that that's not a focus for you, but now that it's been out, like you know, you've released it and you're promoting it. And what do what what do you want people who are listening to to think about if they want to support your your work, you know, your your for your book, you know, the box, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah. I definitely want people to buy it and read it. The message that I'm bringing with this book is the idea of this is one woman's journey through depression and and how she handles it. And of course, you know, it it it doesn't it it it it has a it has a happy ending, it has a good ending, right? But I want I want people to go through this journey with her and really see her and and all the other characters, I want to talk about the other characters as well, really see her as this a person who felt like she was knocked down from life and and how she managed to bring herself up and how the people were put in in place in her life to help bring her up, right? And there were things that that that that happened in her life that she doesn't come to realize that it was part of her journey the whole time. And I want people to think about the things that happened in their own lives, reflect on what what it is that that that is causing them pain, and and see, you know, what they can do to to help themselves overcome that, not overcome it, to help themselves through that pain, understanding themselves, understanding the people around them, understanding their relationships, and that's what it's all about. And I'm still doing that for myself. I'm still trying to understand my relationship with myself, my relationship with my sister. Why do I still get angry when such and such happens? And why do I act like a child when this and that happens? And this is like constant reflection on what's going on in my world and what's going on in my head, right? I I I really want people to think about that because that's what my main character has to do. She she she she understands how she is, and then now she has to learn about her mother. Well, what was my mom going through? Why does she behave the way that she did towards me when she was still alive? And and then she has to understand what her relationship with her sister is and what her relationship with her father is, all separate, but all together at the same time. You follow what I'm saying? And and not only is my main character, Mia, going through her own trials and tribulations, but her sister is going through her own thing, right? With she's suffering from depression in a different kind of way. And their their father is is suffering with depression through a different kind of way. And and Mia, my main character's best friend, is going through her own issues. I want people to be able to find that person in the in the book that relates most to them and see, well, wow, you know, I guess everybody in the world has their own issues that they're dealing with. This is one of the things that we have to think about. Let's just be kind to each other because we don't know what the other person is going through, right? We're all going through issues. What are they going through? How what am I going through? What can I do to help myself overcome or go through what I need to go through to learn something at the end or the other side of it?

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Carlene 16:17

Wow. That just made me think about so many things because I think as someone who struggles with mental health as well, I can totally relate to that because I think unless you deal with the stuff, it will come back. It will come back in different ways. I've I've gone, I've done a lot of like you've like yourself, I've done a lot of meditation. And in the last year, I've I've gone to some mindfulness, I've done some meditation workshops, I've done a silent retreat. And I'm I'm a chatty Kathy. I'm not I'm I'm an extrovert, introvert, meaning I like people and that, but I find like when everything is quiet, you realize certain things about yourself, like when you're alone with your thoughts and you're like, wow, it's amazing that you know you're able to write the book and share that experience, you know,

From Blogger To Author

Carlene 17:04

which is important. And and so with your sister, you guys are twins. So are you the oldest? Like, I I how do they like, you know, I think it's always the thing with twins that whoever was born first, right? Is the oldest. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah. My my sister is actually, uh, I always forget, I think she's three minutes older than I am. But but yeah, yeah. Only because the doctor took her out first. That's it. But um uh yeah, she was but she she is she's a little bit taller than me. But yeah, we're we're we're very, very close and we live together. And she was the only person, I think, in my life that had to deal with my depressive nonsense on on a regular basis. And I call it nonsense. I'm I'm just just joking. But she she she was the one that was there through my most depressive moments and where I didn't even understand why I was crying, I didn't understand why I was upset. And you probably heard this story before from because you've done your research. I see that. Um she was just like, enough, I I don't know how to help you. I'm gonna find you a therapist. And she's the one who who kind of started me on that journey to healing. So I I'm a I'm a huge, huge believer in t in talk therapy, huge believer. Because if it wasn't for the therapy that I was going through, like really reflecting on on a weekly basis, all the things that I'm going through and my my my therapist giving me the hard work of of dealing with things that I didn't want to deal with, I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have been able to make all the discoveries about myself or you know, you know, realizations about myself that I did. And I probably would have been just as depressed as I was, let's say 20 years ago, you know. But because I know myself a little bit more, I know how to handle myself sometimes a little bit more. I always it it's been able to help me deal with myself, have more compassion for myself, and just been been able to open up a little bit more. And and I'm not so closed off anymore, I'm not so angry, I'm not I'm not so bitter. I go through my depressive moments still, I really do, but it's not like I was 15, 20 years ago. I was a different person back then, you know?

Carlene 19:23

Well, you know, our siblings are very important, right? I think, yeah, my younger sister, who's like three years younger than me, I think she was definitely the person I talked to the most until I started getting help. Like, you know, I started seeing a therapist when I was in my first year at York because I I had these moods. Um, so I I totally understand that. Like I would lash out and I thought it was okay, but I've said this before in conversation that when you are in a relationship with someone who hasn't had the same upbringing you have, and they and they see like anger, you know, anger management, like I would, you know, have a hot temper, they start to say, like, you know, um, he's probably the reason I started seeing a therapist, because I guess for me that that was normal, but for him that wasn't. And so I can totally understand that. And so it's good to have, you know, the the people, like our little village, you know what I mean? They say it makes a it takes a village, right? To help us through our ups and our downs. And like, you know, you'll have some people along the way, and you've been on many podcasts. So I s I I see you've been on over 40 podcasts. So it with those experiences, what have you learned with doing that, with being on other podcasts and sharing your story?

SPEAKER_02 20:40

I I've learned how to talk about my situation. You know, it's it's interesting because there's so there are some things that I talk about more now than I did when I first started um doing podcasts because now I have the language for it, whereas before I didn't. So every time I go to g go on a different podcast, I I learn a little bit more about myself. I think about what did I say, or I should have said this, or I shouldn't have said that, or whatever. You know, I just learn to talk, I learn different ways to share my story. That that's how I I feel. I feel like being a guest on on so many different podcasts is it's a I was gonna say something corny like it's a superpower. But it it really it really does help me talk about it, right? It's it's helped me talk about the the link between my own experience and my novel. And and it's it's helped me talk about what I've experienced, the reason why I was depressed in the first place. And I was able to bring all that out to the point where I could just talk about it now, and I don't have to, I I don't have to break down in tears anymore when I talk about it. It's helped me that way.

Carlene 21:44

Yeah. That's so important. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like I I think it's kind of like you've

Why Publish And What It Means

Carlene 21:51

created like a pathway, you know what I mean? And and in different in different ways, like you're reaching out to someone. And so for someone Who is a depressive or is feeling depressed, what do you say to them? I think you've said this many times, but what what do you say?

SPEAKER_02 22:10

I I think uh f find a a a network of people, n not it doesn't even have to be a network. Find one person that you trust to be able to talk to about it. Uh so they there are there are five things that I normally do that I did that I found that helped me really with a depression. One of them is writing, right? I I love writing stories, I write my blog posts, anything that really where I could just get my stuff out, right? I write exercise on a daily basis. It helps you with what the dopamine, you know, in in your brain. It helps you uh it's a mood elevator. So I I work out consistently. Another thing that I do is uh meditation. I would used to meditate every morning when I got up, and just different types of meditation, even meditations that I would find on YouTube, like guided meditations and that help you that tell you when to breathe in, when to breathe out, and all that stuff really, really helped me. Affirmations, I would say, I am a good person and I am this and some people find it silly, but I I I found that it helped me. I I I would say to the point where I really believed in it. It helped me really believe in myself because as a depressive, I I I just had the lowest of self-esteem, and it really helped lift me. So I was able to do that. I like listening to like those motivational talks, like I don't know.

Carlene 23:34

Oh yeah, like Mel Robbins or Jay Shake, or I don't know who you like, but I mean I like listening to them too. I find like, you know, Mel Robbins, she always has like certain things. If you're feeling stressed out or you're trying to get back to your routine, it's like I find like it's helpful. And and like you said, getting exercise or just going outside and getting some vitamin D, like just getting outside. I always struggle with this because of my own thing, but like every time I go outside, I'm like, I should have came out earlier. You know, I always say that because I think sometimes it like on my days off, I'll say, I'm gonna go for a walk today. And so, yeah, I can totally understand um what you're saying, Kathy, which is amazing. It's true. We do have to do those things. And do you do you give yourself like a day to like, you know, sometimes we have those days where we're just like, I'm not gonna go outside today. I think I need to stay in. So do you do that sometimes too? Like where you have those things?

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Or oh yeah, I do have those days. Like for me, going outside, it it I don't go look, if I have a few days off, I am perfectly content and staying all of those days inside, indoors. But my sister's like, no, you have to get some fresh air, you have to, you know, get that vitamin D, right? But yeah, there are days where I don't do one or two or three of the things that I that that I say to do, and I I just have to give myself grace. I'm I just like look, you're not gonna do this today, and you're just gonna have to get over it, you know, like you know, be at peace with it because you're you're defeating the purpose if you beat yourself up over it, you over not doing it, you know what I mean? So if you decide not to do it, then you're just gonna have to make peace with that, and you know, and maybe just do it tomorrow. But yeah.

Carlene 25:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

So where can we find the box? Well, you can find it on Amazon. It is available. And it's available in print, it's available ebook, and it's available audio. So that just came out the audio version just came out this past July, and so I haven't been promoting it as much as I I feel like I should have, but it's it's out there, it's it's available.

Carlene 25:43

So oh, that's cool. That's cool that it's an audiobook. Because I I had a guest on, and she only listens to audiobook, and you know, yeah. I have one more question. What is your favorite book? Do you have a favorite author?

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Oh gosh, you know, for a very long time, I want to say that my favorite author was Maya Angelou. But but you know, I can't say that I have a current favorite author. I don't know. Oh, oh, you know what? Let me let me say an author whose

Legacy, Culture, And Future Projects

SPEAKER_02 26:15

books I tend to really like. I don't know if you've ever heard of Lisa Jewell. No, she's she's British, I want to say. She has a lot of really good books. Lisa Jewell, she sort of writes in the realm of like not mystery, but maybe speculative, I guess, and and thrillers, thrillers. Oh, they're so good. Oh, you like thrillers?

Carlene 26:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

I do like thrillers, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carlene 26:40

So do you think that if you were to work on something, would you go down that route or you're more like introspective in your own writing?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Well, I think I the the next novel that I'm working on is just happens to be about a pair of twins, and I think I want to take it down that thriller-esque realm. And it's it's it's making me a little bit nervous because I've never written that before. And so I'm like, okay, I I need to do this well. But but yeah, it's going to be in in that realm of like maybe thriller or speculative, you know, fiction or or something to that effect. Yeah.

Carlene 27:18

So wow. So something to look forward to. So oh yeah, I wrote down her name, Lisa Jewell, but yeah, I think that's so amazing. And I think you are definitely working on your your your sunshine, you know, like your debut, whatever that may be. You know what I mean? I you know what? It's it's so interesting. I watched one of your interviews, and this one, it was a TV show. I've never even heard of this TV show, but he was saying, he's like, Don't worry, you're gonna have that book that might be, you know, like your JK Rawling or your Maya Angelou still, you know what I mean? And and so, yeah, you know what I'm talking about, right?

unknown 27:56

Yeah, yeah.

Carlene 27:56

Yeah, I didn't know. I was like, oh, this is different. Wow. It was an interesting format. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, you know what? Keep doing what you're doing, and eventually it'll make its impression. Because I I even think about that, the book that you wrote. And I'm like, wow, that's interesting, right? So yeah, thanks. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I wish you all the best. And I'm Carlene. This is Kathleena. Say your last name for me again. Yes, and so um, if you want to check out her book, The Box, you can. If you enjoyed our conversation, you can send me a text at divatonight.brusbrout.com and share your opinions on the episode.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Thanks for listening to DivaTonight. Follow us on Instagram at diva on the radio. That's diva with two eyes. And don't forget to follow us on TikTok at DivaOntheRadio for more clips and conversations you'll love. Want to share your thoughts or send us a message? Text us anytime at divatonight.busproute.com. Until next time, stay fabulous.