The Prenup Playbook: Money, Love, And Future Security

We sit down with family law attorney Devani Wells Gibson to demystify prenups, community property, and blended family planning. We share how hard conversations about money, sex, politics, and religion can strengthen trust and lower the risk of divorce.

• defining what a prenup does beyond divorce
• differences between attorney and lawyer, licensing limits
• virtual court shifts after COVID and impact
• community property, pensions, and gray divorce risks
• blended families, wills, trusts, and inheritance alignment
• four hard talks couples must have to align
• financial shame, debt transparency, and compatibility
• red flags, boundaries, and protecting yourself
• moving from litigation to mediation for healthier outcomes
• practical steps if considering divorce after forty
• resources to contact the Prenup Queen for help https://wellsgibsonfamilylaw.com/

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Thanks for listening to Diva Tonight with Carlene! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Devani, The Prenup Queen
• 3:00 Law School Myths And Mindset
• 9:30 Attorney Vs Lawyer And Licensing
• 13:30 Virtual Court And The New Normal
• 15:45 Prenups Beyond Divorce Protection
• 22:00 Pensions, Community Property, And Gray Divorce
• 27:30 Blended Families And Estate Protection
• 32:00 The Four Hard Talks: Money, Sex, Politics, Religion
• 37:30 Alignment, Ambition, And Financial Honesty
• 41:30 Divorce After 40 And Practical Planning

Transcript

Carlene: 0:02

Hi, I'm Carlene, and this is Diva. Tonight I have with me on Zoom Deveney Wells Gibson. She is a leading family law attorney, entrepreneur, and financial advocate, and she is in San Diego. That's where she's based, and she's here to discuss. I think what's really important as the prenup queen herself, why prenuptials agreements are important, obviously. But because this is a series devoted to women in their 40s, I thought this would be a very interesting conversation for women in general and men too, to discuss why one is so important. So hi Deveney.

unknown: 0:46

Hello.

Deveney : 0:46

Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Definitely.

Carlene: 0:49

I'm excited too. I did a little digging and I see that you went to law school. Well, it's it's it's your home is in Texas. You grew up in Texas.

Deveney : 0:59

Yep.

Carlene: 1:00

And Texas is known for that southern drawl, y'all. Like my cousin. Kudos to her. Like whenever she whenever she was visiting, whenever we visit her, I was always waiting for her to say, y'all, are we going to Walmart? You know?

Deveney : 1:17

Yeah. No one ever thinks I'm from the South or from Texas because they say I don't have an accent, but the only reason they ever know is because I say y'all. Like that's that's a dead giveaway every time.

Carlene: 1:30

Yeah, yeah. It's it's a thing, right? Do you miss Texas?

Deveney : 1:36

Um, no, I miss my mom. Okay. She's down in Texas. So I mean, I miss seeing my family and seeing my friends. So I'll go down there for like the holidays or for like my mom's birthday, but I don't particularly miss living down there. Now, will I go back to live down there? Maybe. Um, why I think it's just because I just like different things. I get bored. That sounds terrible. I get bored quite easily. And so, which I do feel bored with San Diego, to be very, very frank. And so, like, I'm already itching to see what my next adventure is, where do I want to live next, things like that. But yeah, it there's nothing wrong with Texas. It's great. Like financially, it's great to live down there. The cost of living is so low compared to San Diego, California. And then, of course, all my friends' family down there. The politics are different, obviously, between Texas and California, but that doesn't necessarily bother me in such a way because I just grew up very conservative, even though that's not that we're trying to get into politics, but like I'm used to that culture. So yeah.

Carlene: 2:40

Yeah. I know we're not gonna get into politics. I think I'll steer clear from that. But uh so where did you go to law school? I think that's an important question to ask, you know?

Deveney : 2:53

Yeah. Um, Cal Western. So in San Diego, California. So that is actually what moved me out here to California was to go to law school. And I went to law school in 2017, and then I've just stayed here ever since.

Carlene: 3:05

Okay, so I guess you've been there for quite a little while. Like it's not like you just moved there, and law school is is it sounds intense. Was it intense? Can you for those that like don't have a law degree and like there's a lot of reading involved, and like it's not like it's not like in legally blonde, is it?

Deveney : 3:25

Like no, no, and that's where a lot of people get tripped up because they see legally blonde or they see uh any of the lawyer shows, and they think that's what it's like, and it's that's not always the case. Um, is law school hard? Um I'll say this. There are people in law school, and I'm shocked on how they got in. I will leave it at that. But me personally, I will say I grew up not being like the most studious person. It wasn't until I got to college, like undergrad, where I was just like, oh, you know what? I actually like school. And then going to law school, I excelled. And it's not like I'm different than anybody else. It's not like I did anything bigger or better because I was that type of person that was like, once 10 p.m. comes around, I'm gonna bed. I don't do all nighters. I don't spend all day in the library like a lot of people did. I think maybe for me, I was just very strict on my boundaries. And it's just like, no, I got homework to do, I gotta go work out, I eat the same thing every single time. Like I was just so consistent. And I think that just helped me be a good student. And then I did study when I was supposed to, obviously. But it's not like college where you can just go party and then wing a test or something like that. It's that's very different. Analyzing in law school is also very different than analyzing or doing like work in undergrad. Like the process that you have to like uncover with your brain. I don't know how to get like, I don't know how to explain it, but just analyzing is very different in law school. So it I will say for the people who do law school straight out of college, they've struggled because it's a very different type of way of thinking. But I will say I didn't go to law school straight out of undergrad. Like I had my undergrad, I went to go work for three years and then came back to law school. So I had a little bit of a gap before going back to law school.

Carlene: 5:20

You know, I you know what's interesting that you say like you took a break. And I think when I was graduating from high school, they made it seem like if you took a break from going from high school to university and then having time in the workforce that it would stop you from like, you know, doing more further education. And I and I think that's like it depends on the person. Yeah, I really do. Because I did my undergrad too, and then I worked, and then I realized like I need to go back to school to change like what I'm gonna study, you know what I mean? So after you graduate college and then you decide you're gonna go to law school, what was the driving force behind that? Like, what was the motivation?

Deveney : 6:01

My mom rem like reminded me that I've always wanted to be an attorney. So I had a family friend who was a criminal attorney, and I just wanted to be like her so badly. Not criminal, that was like the one area I would not touch with a 10-foot pole. Like, would not, but I loved her type of work. I liked her work ethic, I liked the purpose-driven part of what she was doing. And ever since meeting her, I knew I wanted to be an attorney. After I graduated from undergrad, I just, I don't know, I just started working. And I just remember being at work one day, being super miserable. And I was on the phone with my mom, and I was just like, what is life? I was like, this is what I wanted. I wanted to grow up to be an adult to do this the rest of my life. Like, what is this? Like, adulting is ghetto. And she was like, Well, what happened to your dream of being an attorney? That's what you've always wanted to do. Why aren't you doing it? And I was just like, You're right. And so I kid you, not like that month, that's when I just started putting things in place, getting ready to take the LSAT, getting ready to make that move, notified my employer that that's what I wanted to do was to be an attorney. And honestly, my employer was probably one of the best employers ever. They gave me so much support. Um, and so yeah, when I eventually left, and that's back in Texas. So then when I eventually left, like the send-off, they were so sweet, wishing me best of luck. I'm still in contact with quite a few of them, whether it's Facebook or Instagram. Sometimes they check on me just to see how I'm doing. Like, but long story short, to answer your question, it was my mom having a phone call with her, her reminding me of my dreams.

Carlene: 7:42

Yeah. You know, it's always nice to have someone that's gonna support your dream. I think that's what pushes us sometimes, because as long as you have like just one person in your corner, I think that's like the stepping stone to keeping you on track with where you are. And even if you did go to law school and you're not practicing a law, at least you gave it the good old college try. You could say, like, I did it, you know what I mean? I and and that's the thing. I think that when people are are disappointed with how things turned out is because they didn't even try, right? And so it's so important. But getting back to the topic of hand, actually, you know, I have a question. What is the difference between an attorney and a lawyer? Like, is it just a different terminology?

Deveney : 8:27

Like, okay, you know what? I actually had to look into this because they are actually different, even though I do use them, I use them interchangeably because people don't know that there's a difference. And honestly, I didn't know there was a difference until like last year. I believe an attorney is someone who is like actually practicing, past the bar practicing. A lawyer is someone who just graduated from law school, they have their JD, and then you become an attorney once you've passed the bar and you're practicing.

Carlene: 8:57

So you can only practice in San Diego? Is can you practice in any other state?

Deveney : 9:02

I can only practice in California.

Carlene: 9:04

Oh, in California, okay. Yeah.

Deveney : 9:06

But if I go to another state, I have to get licensed in that state and go through all their hoops to be able to practice in that state.

Carlene: 9:16

Yeah.

Deveney : 9:16

And some states are very different. Some require like a whole new form of testing. Other states say you can like wave in, like if you pass the bar that's like comparable to theirs or harder than theirs, they allow for you just to wave in, maybe take like a little bit of a multiple choice test, and then you're good to go. But like here in California, if you lived in Texas and practiced in Texas, you have to come to California and retake their entire bar in order to practice here. And some other states are the exact same way.

Carlene: 9:45

So if you plan to move, that would be definitely something that you would have to think about too, right? Yeah.

Deveney : 9:52

Yeah. But I will say one of the benefits that came from COVID is virtual court. So yeah, now attorney now there's firms that are all virtual, complete, complete virtual. They have no office space, nothing. They do everything virtually, they appear in court virtually. Even though I personally have a distaste for that, I think that I think it does people a disservice, especially when it's a very important like matter. Yeah. But there are attorneys who only appear virtually. Yeah, so that's that's pretty interesting. But as far as what I'm trying to do with like prenup queen, I don't that would keep me out of the courtroom.

Carlene: 10:34

Yeah. So with the prenup queen, the one thing I remember you saying from another episode that you were on is that the misconception is when people think about a prenup, they are thinking that, you know, we're gonna get divorced, or that's why we should get a prenup to think about divorce. And why do you think that is like, you know?

Deveney : 10:57

I think that's that way because of that. That's just how uh society painted it. Prenups aren't very used to not be very common. So all we know was Kanye West's like, we want prenup, we want prenup, like gold digger. We know prenups to be like only the really rich need it because of all the movies and all the celebrities and all that stuff. But what I'm trying to really teach people and educate people is the fact that prenups do more than just protect against divorce. And if you're doing the prenup process right, if anything, it would help strengthen the marriage and lower the divorce rate because it requires such a level of transparency, such a level of trust that people don't seem to do early on in their relationship, which is mind-boggling me. But especially doing these prenup processes, more and more people, I'm just like, have y'all had this conversation? Have y'all decided what y'all want to do? If y'all are gonna have kids, if you're gonna do X, Y, and Z. And they've never had these discussions before. And I hope I'm saying that without judgment, because I'm not trying to come off sounding judgy, but through the prenup process and what the prenup queen is and our course, the Love Me 12 course, is about, is having all of these discussions. Granted, they are hard, sometimes uncomfortable discussions, but they're much needed discussions to set a very solid foundation for people so they have a very solid marriage moving forward. That way they're on the same page on all of these topics. So that way, if an obstacle comes, if something pops up, they've already discussed it. They already know what's gonna happen. It's nothing new. They have a plan, burst through that obstacle. They've been on the same page from the get-go.

Carlene: 12:41

Yeah. But you know, the statistics are that many people are getting married later on in life. I what I read was the average person out is getting married at the age of 30, like 30 to 31. And yeah, and so they're coming into this marriage with more assets. It's not like in the 1950s where we're like, you know, she's she's she's at home taking care of the kids. And uh, from what you've said, uh, is that women are sometimes the breadwinner, which is so encouraging. You know what I mean? I can't believe it. Like, it's true. Like, I I know someone I work with, and his wife makes more money than he does. And so it just changes the whole process of marriage and how far we've come in that light. But obviously, tough conversations to have. So, when someone is getting married, why do you think it's so hard to, you know, think about a prenuptial agreement? Like it it sounds scary though. Like, even when I'm thinking about it now, I think it's it's Hollywood has made this such a thing. Like, I've seen movies where he didn't get the prenup and she took him for every last drop. And, you know, that's the sad part, right?

Deveney : 13:57

Yeah, yeah. There's so much you said so many good things, but I will say yes to the fact that times have changed. I wanted to address that too.

Carlene: 14:06

Oh, yes, yeah. I I went, yeah.

Deveney : 14:08

Yeah. But yes to the fact that times have changed, you know, we're no longer in the point in our lives where women couldn't vote, couldn't have a bank account, couldn't own nothing, right? So now we have the ability to have all these assets. Yes to the fact that people are getting married later in life. And I think that's also because there people are realizing there's more to life than just granted, you're in Canada, right? So I'm gonna say the American dream. There's more to life. There's more to life than just marriage kids and the white picket fans, right? Like you can have goals, you can have hobbies, you can have a career, you can travel, like there's so many opportunities out there. And then also just people becoming more educated on marriage itself. So, yes, that also means coming into the marriage with more assets, more money, all that good stuff as well. Does that necessarily mean there's more to protect? Sure. That's what I say. So people feel the need to get protection, but I would tell someone who also had no money that they still needed a prena, just as much as someone who had all the money in the world needs a prena.

Carlene: 15:12

So I was talking to a friend, yeah, and someone he knows is now getting a divorce. And what happened is the wife is making more money, and they're at that age of retirement and close to retirement. And yeah, so the issue is she is the one that's going to be getting a better pension. So here we are in Canada, there this couple that lives in Alberta, and so he wasn't thinking about that, but now because of the advice from his family members, he can take her to court for half of her pension, which is something she did not realize would be an issue because she's the one making more money.

Deveney : 15:52

Yeah. And you would think, like, well, it's my pension. I'm the one who worked all these years, it should be mine. Yeah. I don't know about Alberta, but in community property states like here in California, even in equitable distribution states, which would be some other states that aren't community property, it depends. But in community property states, anything that you do during the marriage is community. So you working is community. Your skills, your efforts are community. And that's why things get to buy it the way they do. So I I knew you were gonna talk about retirement. And what we call here is gray divorce. Oh it's very unfortunate because the sad part about gray divorces that they don't think about is their their pension, their retirement. So they think I'm about to hit 65, 67, whatever the age of retirement is. I'm about to settle, I'm about to be done working. They get a divorce, half their retirement's gone. That pension, half of it gone. Yeah. So they're gonna retire on what? On what money? Because half of it's now gone. So sometimes it's uh so even though I say that, sometimes it's fair, sometimes it's not. And the only time where I think it could be fair is when there has been like a stay-at-home parent or there has been somebody who really sacrificed their career to be a stay-at-home whatever. And I mean like a true stay-at-home, whatever, like cooking, cleaning, like doing literally all the domestic things to allow the other person to live a comfortable life to go out into their career and build it up for what it was. It makes sense to me then. But those are things that we talk about in the prenup. And so that's probably why a lot of people think like, well, you're already planning on divorce, because we do talk about these what ifs, and one of the what-ifs does happen to be divorced. So they're already, that's likely why they're thinking, well, if you're getting a prenup, you're thinking about divorce. But you're thinking about so many other things as well. It's not just about divorce, but what society knows is that a prenup is protection against divorce, but doesn't know what other protections it serves or whatever what other purpose a prenup serves.

Carlene: 18:05

So can you explain what a prenup serves like and the purpose of a prenup and why anyone who is listening and is potentially getting married or you know, why they should consider getting a prenup.

Deveney : 18:19

Yeah. So obviously one of them's divorce. The second one could be debts. So one of the beautiful things that you can do in a prenup is to categorize what's community/slash marital, what's separate. So if you don't want someone else's debts that they might incur during the marriage to be deemed community, to which you now have a 50% obligation in that debt that they incurred during the marriage, you can say that's separate. That'll be your responsibility. So if credit credit card companies start coming after you, if anybody starts coming after you trying to collect on that debt, they can't come after me because it's it's no longer my responsibility. Because the also the money you make during the marriage is community. So if you have like a joint bank account and you're putting all your money in that joint bank account, there's no prenup, that money is community, meaning the other person that has all this obligation is entitled to 50% of what's in that joint bank account. So the credit card companies can say, well, you're married, you're in a community property state, I want to see all the assets that you have. Because now they're going to determine do you have a 50% interest in your partner stuff? Let's collect that. And that's where people who um have partners that get into substantial debt start to have all these financial hardships come into place. Another big one is if you are doing a blended family. So for purposes of creating like estate planning or doing a will, a trust, things of that nature. And this is where I tend to collaborate a lot with estate planners, because what ends up happening is, for example, say I have a child from a previous relationship and I'm about to enter into a marriage with somebody that is not my child's biological parents. When I get married to this person, and if I'm in a community property state or even whichever state, if I'm getting married to this person, we now become one unit, community. There's marital assets, community assets, my incomes, his income, stuff like that. If I want to pass things down to my daughter, who is my biological kid, but not the other person's, not my spouse's, because again, it's a blended family, it's like the Cinderella story, where my child might get nothing if I le if I pass because it's now community assets. There's now community assets that would just pass to the other, to my other my spouse. So to avoid my child living in a Cinderella story, I would have to have a prena that is going to specifically outline what's community and what's separate so I can make sure I pass things down to her so she's protected. And that's not to say like I don't trust this other person to take care of her, but at the end of the day, I'm saying her, it could be a he, my future kid. At the end of the day, that's my kid, you know, that's my biological child that I am 100% responsible for, and I need to make sure she is set for her future or his future. So that's that's my biggest benefit for a prenup is protections for blended families to avoid Cinderella situation.

Speaker: 21:29

Diva tonight, glamour for your ears. This is 40, a female perspective.

Carlene: 21:36

So while we're talking about like the whole Cinderella situation, like you know, you're you're in love and Prince Charming has arrived, you know? Um, so what kind of difficult conversation should Cinderella be having with Prince Charming, you know?

Deveney : 21:53

Everything, money, obviously.

Carlene: 21:56

Like how much debt you have, like, like you know, those things, like when you go into like a like any relationship, and I find like not everybody's so like transparent with like their money issues. Like it's it's it's it's a hard conversation to have. Yeah.

Deveney : 22:13

Yes, right. The three, yeah, they say the three hardest things to talk about are I should say four religion, money, politics, and sex. Those seem to be the most taboo, uncomfortable conversations for people to have. But also, you need all four of those things to be aligned with your partner in order to have a decent relationship, right? So they have to be conversations that people have, regardless if they want the marriage to be successful. So the conversations that they should have would really be those four things because finances end up being one of the leading causes of divorce. Intimacy ends up being an issue which could lead to like infidelity or not, or just the fact that there's no sex happening in the relationship, and maybe people have different libidos. Like it's just a conversation that has to be had. And then, of course, religion, politics, there's a mixed back on whether people can be compatible having different political stances, or be compatible having different religious stances or religious beliefs. But at the end of the day, it just needs to be a conversation. I know what I want when it comes to my partner, and I know that I want to be aligned on all four of those things. And I feel like that's also a lot of people. So then they just need to have those conversations to make sure they're aligned. But as far as money and finances go, I think there's also a lot of shame when it comes to money. Like maybe people just don't feel as far ahead as they should be for their age. But when you look at stats, like the average person can't even afford a $1,000 emergency. Like that's literally just where we're at. And so I think people just feel a lot of shame behind that, or a lot of shame behind being in debt. Because I can say, like for myself personally, like I have my student loan and I'm six figures, six figures in student loan debt. And the the weight of that is so much. And even just saying that out loud just seems very shameful because it's like, why are you in debt by six six figures? And the interest rate, like, my God. And then trying to have that conversation with my partner who doesn't have nearly as much student loans as I do. There's so many things like that will swirl through someone's head. Like, again, if I'm just being very transparent, like one of my things is just, well, am I going to hold him back from his goals and his dreams because I'm so busy trying to pay off these debts that he's not on that, you know, he's not doing the same thing. Like maybe he wants to go live a beautiful life and travel and do all these things. And I don't know if you're paying off debt, right? So now is there in a compatibility issue? Is this person not going to love me or not going to want to be with me because we're not aligned right now? There's so many things that people probably feel ashamed of and why it's so scared to have those conversations, but they just need to be had. Because if I didn't have that conversation, and if he did decide he, you know, didn't want to be with me because I had these student loan debts, that's his choice to make. So if I'm hiding that because I'm scared he's gonna leave me, I'm doing him a disservice because maybe he doesn't want to be with me because it we're just not financially aligned. But that's his decision to make, you know, the right person for me will stick around and want to help me, you know, or support me in paying off my debts.

Carlene: 25:38

They say like the person that like you want or that you um align with is pretty much like your goals in mind. So like Absolutely, you talk about money, right? And so I've I've listened to way too many podcasts, and they're like, you whatever you want, you should be aligned with yourself. If you want someone who's ambitious, you should be ambitious. If you want someone who's financially stable, you should be working on those things too, because they say you attract what you are or things that like you need to work on, right? And so what do you think about that? Because I mean you put you you pretty much just said it. And I have I still have student loan debt myself, and I've actually I'm working with this consolidation company because COVID like just changed the whole process for me in terms of like trying to pay that down, and you know, like life happens, right? And so I said a lot a whole lot in that question there, but I'm just gonna, you know, the whole alignment with your finances. Like you said, you want someone who's aligned in four of those parts of life, so like yeah.

Deveney : 26:46

Yeah, I think alignment is absolutely needed for a very solid relationship. It doesn't mean they have to be the exact same as you, but they can't be like the not polar opposite.

Carlene: 26:58

Yeah.

Deveney : 26:59

You can't have someone who sits there and just spins willy-nilly and then you have a penny pincher. Like, there's no way they would mesh unless they're fine, they're gonna find a way to compromise and get over that. But it's hard to compromise when y'all are just complete opposites, when you're just polar opposites. So the closer aligned you are, the easier it is to compromise if a compromise has to happen. Otherwise, if y'all are very closely aligned, y'all are moving through life in a way that makes sense to you because y'all are aligned. So it's not as much as like there's not as many hurdles that y'all have to get over.

Carlene: 27:33

Yeah. And so, like when you're meeting with clients and discussing that part of life, I think we said this in our prior discussion that a lot of couples who are older, like in their 40s and 50s, they're the ones dealing with divorce now. And what do you say to the to the those people who are considering getting divorced at at that time in your life?

Deveney : 27:59

Like that they need to talk to a financial advisor or like a financial planner. Like they need the older you get, the less time you have to like recover. You know, when you're in your early 20s, you can make these little mistakes because whatever, you still got 40 more years before you retire. When you get close to retirement age, you don't have that luxury. So one of the first things that I talk to them about is that they need to talk to someone to get their finances in order. And then I do want to make sure they're gonna be financially prepared. Granted, when people go through divorce, the only time they're really worried about finances is obviously when we're about to split them. But there's especially more so for women, they're more emotionally concerned. Like they're not necessarily always worried about the money. They're they're still on like an emotional roller coaster. So it is easier for me to work with men in divorces than it is to work with women because it's almost more like a of a therapy service when I'm representing women. So I'm having more heart to hearts on like this is what you deserve and talking woman to woman and stuff like that. Yeah. Whereas when it's with men, it's like, how much money I'm getting? What's getting cut? Do I get this asset? Like, they're so more about like the practical yeah, the tactical stuff. And in the women, it's like we're just crying together. And then it's like, okay, you need to actually go see a therapist because it would be cheaper for you to go see a therapist than to be crying with me. You know, so yeah, women just think very differently than men do, and that's also why it's been really hard trying to attract women to the prenup process. Like, majority of my clients, even in the prenup process, is men because that's just how they think. Like, they're just looking at things very like black and white, and women are looking at like the love and the emotion and the romance. And I'm like, girl, like the law does not care about anything. Of that, like please, so yes.

Carlene: 30:06

Oh my gosh, I guess that reinforces the fact that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Like, yes, but I love it. You know what I mean? We'll we'll do everything in our power to try and make it work until it's not working. Yeah.

Deveney : 30:21

And I hate that for us. And it's just, I mean, look, I've been there done that, right? I am the way I am because I have learned my lessons. Granted, I have never been married, but I am a product of divorce. Like my parents divorced also. But like I've been there, done that. I've lived with someone who's sat there and took advantage of me financially. I live with, I've been, what is it called? Like not Bob the Builder, but like Brenda the Builder or whatever. Like I seen so much potential in somebody that I was willing to sacrifice my career, my money, myself to try and build them up, only for them to still treat me like crap. Like I have been there, done that. I have learned my lesson. And if anything, I have learned that I need to take better steps to protect myself because I have such a caring heart. I am so loyal. I am like, I am a ride or die. I hate to say that, but I am a ride or die. And I wish if I could go back and tell my younger self anything, it was either one, put protections in place or two, walk away. Like learn to walk away. You just need protection. It's not mutually exclusive to have love and protection. You know how you are as a person. You know how it can be. If you've been screwed over before, that's a lesson. Just put protections in place. You can't control the other person. If they're gonna cheat, they're gonna cheat. If they're gonna leave, they're gonna leave. Let them. But you protected your future by getting a prenup, postnup, cohabitation agreement, whatever it is, and that not only protects your future, but if you have kids, protects their futures. So that way, if that person decides to leave because they did whatever they chose to do, or you leave because they did whatever they chose to do, you know you can walk away without all of the litigation. You can walk away without all the resentment, all the spitefulness, them trying to come at you financially, drown you in attorney's fees, drown you in through the litigation process, like we're done.

Carlene: 32:20

Yeah.

Deveney : 32:20

So yeah, I just I just love to tell people it's not mutually exclusive, exclusive. You can be so head over heels with someone, so in love, but also love yourself enough to also protect your future because you deserve that.

Carlene: 32:34

Yeah. That's so interesting. So, like in in in your personal experience, like you said like walking away or set putting boundaries in place. So, what are some of the red flags that you ignored that other, whoever's listening, should pay attention to? Because I think it's very hard when you're in the situation versus on the outside.

Deveney : 32:57

Um, I want to say that I'll talk about the red flags. I think one of the biggest ones would have been listening to my mom. She's like she just knows. She's like, Dad, he is not the one, like absolutely not. And I'm like, But mom, but I love him. And like she just knew. But that was one of them. The second thing I can say is the you hit you hit it on the no when you said ambition. Um, I dated someone who just did not have the drive to do better in life. Whereas I did, like I did his resumes, I sent out his resumes, I helped him get these jobs, like I cooked for him, cleaned for him, but I was also the breadwinner. I was also the one paying the bills, you know, like I did it all only for him to go cheat on me with somebody else. And then when I leave, keyed my car. Like it, like I just keyed my car and gaslit me. I I took him back for a little bit and realized like that was like the biggest mistake, and then had to kick him out. And it got to the point where then there was domestic violence involved, to the point where the cops had to come, to the point where the cops had to take him to jail. Like it, yeah, I've been there, I've I've done that. I am loyal to a fault because I really do want to believe that there's good in people. And maybe there, maybe there is, and I want to keep that, right? Like, not me about to like tear up, but I want to believe that there's good in people. And even like now as a divorce attorney, it's really hard because it's making me very jaded to love. And that's partly why I love the prenup queen, because I'm able to see these couples like so head over heels for each for each other. And honestly, even still going through the prenup process, like watching them want to protect the other person. Like, well, babe, that's not gonna be fair for you. Like that whole conversation is just, I love it. You know, and they're sitting there having these, I just I love it. And so it's also why I want to do more work in the prenup realm because I want to build those types of relationships. I want people to like just have very solid foundations. Yeah. And because the divorce rate is so high right now. If we can just lower it, that'd be nice. But I went off on a tangent. But those are my lessons learned. Yeah. Wow. I've I've been with several men who just didn't have the ambition. I've been with men who had very, I've only been with four guys. I've been with one person who had two people who had no ambition or not as much drive as I did. I've been with another person who had a different religious belief. And it wasn't necessarily hard until like his in-laws got involved, and then that became hard. So yeah, alignment is crucial.

Carlene: 35:41

Yeah. No, it's sir, it certainly is. And I think if you're I I I I understand where you're coming from, where you give with all your heart and like you want to help. And like sometimes I'm like, I remember like thinking about what you said with the relationship. I remember dating this guy. It wasn't like long term, but I dated him and he was going through so much. Like he was dealing with the ex, and then his and then his father had passed away a while back. And I'm like, this guy's more emotional than I am. And I I can't, I can help you, but only so much. And then I I realized like I can't do this. Like it's draining me too much. So when it when it's it's that hard, then you have to like walk away, like you said, right? And but it's it's it's just human nature. And obviously, um, you found your calling, which is important, you know what I mean? That you're helping people do the the hard thing. That's it's the hardest thing, you know, to think about those things. And so what do you do to help with the kind of work that you do? Because it it sounds like it's mentally taxing, not physically, more like mentally taxing on yourself.

Deveney : 36:48

And yeah, it's mentally taxing and it's emotionally taxing. And so funny that you asked because we've actually decided to take a turn at the firm. So my firm is Wells Gibson Family Law, and we've now strayed away from doing litigation. So now, I mean, I still have my litigation clients. I'm not leaving them. Like I took them on as clients. When I say I'm loyal to a fault, I'm I'm I'm in the journey with them. I'm in it with them. Um, they trusted me and I'm going, I'm I'm a ride or die. So I'll keep them, but we're just not taking on any more litigation clients. And now we've turned the firm into mediation. So now we're focusing on doing primarily mediation at the firm. So that way we're not having to deal with as much of the mentally and emotionally taxing part of divorce, which I feel like even that still gives me, it makes me sad because, and I'm not, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything like that, but like I'm a damn good attorney. And it's like I do enjoy being in court and I do enjoy that process, but it's just it, it's just too much stress having 40 clients constantly coming at me because the other person did something, and then there's the kids involved. And then it's like to them, to every single person, it is an emergency because it is their family dynamics being altered. It is their financial positions being altered. It's it's literally changing their lives. And so just having 40 clients at one time constantly needing me has just become very taxing. So I do think for me personally, I just need to take a step back. And I do want to, you know, now change my career into something that's going to bring me a lot more joy than what the firm was previously doing.

Carlene: 38:35

Yeah. Wow. That's very powerful for sure. Because I think you know what? And in every line of work, there's always the the the hard the hard part that you have to deal with. And it's true, you're you're dealing with people's lives and and like they want you to do all these things. Like, I mean, as a lawyer, right? But there's only so much you can do to help them. So I think, yeah. So I think, I think, I think to to ask the last question, what what advice do you have for someone who is getting married? Because I I maybe not getting married, but maybe just thinking of getting divorced. Like, I think it's really hard. It's I I think it's the hardest thing to do. Like you see it in movies and TV shows, and you know, from your own personal experience watching it unfold, what and as a product, you're two questions. So, as a child of parents who are divorced, what advice do you have for anyone else who's listening and also someone who's considering divorce?

Deveney : 39:36

Yeah, as a child of divorce, granted, that's also partly why I wanted to be an attorney. Yeah. With the kids, I would say it is each parent's responsibility to protect their kids. And what that means can is obviously a lot of different things. But that's also so if you're thinking about getting married, if you know you want to have kids, putting up as much protection as possible to try to keep their lives as stable as possible. And I say that because when my mom divorced, we went from living in a it was a two-income household. Um, and it was very comfortable. It was a very comfortable household to my mom now being divorced and working three jobs and being the primary parent. And my dad was more of like the weekend parent up up until he eventually just decided not to be active in my life at all. So watching her work three jobs was a lot. Her missing out on my extracurriculars because I ended up playing volleyball all the way through college, but her not being able to attend a lot of those things because she's so busy working to try to make sure my life isn't altered. But at the same time, the sad part is her no longer being as present has also altered my life because she's worried about the finances. And I'm just worried about her presence. Because as a kid, I don't care about the finances, right? But as an adult, you do. So I would say it's another reason to get a prenup. You really just never know what's gonna happen in life. No one wants the worst case scenario to happen to them. No one gets married thinking they're going to get divorced. No, no one has that thought, okay? Yet 40 to 50, 40 to 50 percent of first-time marriages end in divorce. And that statistic increases with every subsequent marriage that you have. So second-time marriages, up to like 60% of them end in divorce. When you get married for the third time, statistically speaking, 73% of third-time marriages end in divorce. The divorce rate's very high, right? You just never know. So I would say just have the protection. Now, for the people who are thinking about getting divorced, I will also say don't stay in a marriage for your kids. We are watching, we see everything that happens. So if you are a woman and you are being mistreated by a man, however, or whatever.

Carlene: 41:58

Yeah.

Deveney : 42:00

The kids are watching. So if you have a daughter, she's saying, is this how a man is supposed to treat me? Is is this is this what a relation, is this what a healthy relationship looks like? They were looking at you as a role model. Then if you have a kid, oh, is this how I'm supposed to talk? I'm sorry, if you have a a son, oh, is that how I'm supposed to talk to women? Oh, is that how a man is supposed to lead in this relationship? Oh, or whatever the case may be, your kids are watching. So it is okay to leave because it it would be hard, yes, but it is better for your kids to see two have happy parents than to see miserable parents. What else do I say? Oh, for if getting a divorce is hard. Same thing, talk to someone in the finance sector, make sure you're gonna get your finances in order. Divorce is not cheap, especially if you're gonna hire an attorney, it is not cheap at all. And I promise you that money can be better served going somewhere else. But sometimes some cases just result in litigation because you just have two people who are very resentful, very spiteful, just want to battle it out when that money can go to college funds, go to the kids, go travel, go do literally anything else. So just to make sure you are going to be food and housing secure and you have some finances somewhere to be able to get through the litigation process.

Carlene: 43:21

Yeah, that is some great advice. And as someone who grew up in a very dysfunctional household with parents who always argued, it does a number on you and you start to think that that is normal and it's not. And I had to do a lot of unlearning of that behavior. What's important is that you are working with families as a prenup queen. So if anyone wants to work with you or get advice, legal advice, you know, how can they contact you?

Deveney : 43:53

Of course. So obviously I'm on the gram or even TikTok. Oh my god. But I'm on the gram, Instagram at theprenup queen. Same thing on TikTok. If anyone's on TikTok, or you can just email me, help H E L P at theprenupqueen.com. And our website, theprenup queen.com.

Carlene: 44:13

Theprenupqueen.com. I mean, it's it says it. I love that. You know what I mean? Got some rights with like Kanye. Yo, Kanye, can we oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much, Devani Wells Gibson, for being such a great guest. And I just appreciate the advice you've given. It it's it makes you think a lot about what your future could be like. I think planning ahead is so important. It'll save you down the line, right? And so thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate it.

Deveney : 44:49

Of course, thanks for having me. Yeah.

Speaker: 44:51

Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back. Send us a message on Instagram at Diva underscore tonight.