Diva Tonight with Carlene Humphrey
Diva Tonight offers a unique blend of personal anecdotes, expert insights, and candid conversations with female Entrepreneurs from all over the USA and Canada. Diva Tonight provides a safe and supportive space for listeners to explore their relationships and personal growth.
This season's focus is on the women who are celebrating their 40 years of life, it is a female perspective on this next chapter. This season we discuss life, menopause and perimenopause and the relationships that affect us in various ways, with hopes of inspiring others to share their struggles- so that women will find the courage to ask for help so that they don't have to suffer in silence.
Diva Tonight with Carlene Humphrey
Navigating Motherhood: The Messy, Beautiful Reality of 40
Marie and Nicole share their experiences as mothers, entrepreneurs, and friends of 18 years, exploring the challenges and joys of raising children while maintaining their identities outside of motherhood.
• Friendship that has evolved into family over 18 years, with a "drive-by friendship" style where they drop in without formal plans
• Raising children in different environments - Nicole's experience in the UK and China versus Marie's entrepreneurial journey in Canada
• Childbirth complications and how medical systems often fail to support women through the "fourth trimester"
• Balancing work and motherhood through remote work, flexible schedules, and supportive employers
• Parenting styles from "free-range" to "tiger parenting" and finding what works for each unique child
• The importance of maintaining your whole identity beyond just being a mom
• Letting children discover their own strengths rather than imposing narrow definitions of success
• How having children later in life trades energy for wisdom and life experience
Thanks for listening to Diva Tonight! Please send a review of the show on https://divatonight.buzzsprout.com
- I want to thank my Podcast Editor Sean McAndrew!
- Thanks to Altered by Mom for sponsoring the music for the show
- Thanks to Colin Campbell for sponsoring the show!
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Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva. Tonight I have with me on Zoom the lovely Marie and Nicole. This is my first time doing, I guess, a conversation with two people at once, and since this series is devoted to life at 40, I thought it would be interesting to have you both on the show to talk about. You know, your experiences with being a mom, or what we call mompreneur, and Marie's like a foodpreneur. Is that right, I am a foodpreneur and I enjoy food.
Speaker 2:But yes, that works.
Speaker 1:I saw your little blurb there and I'm like, oh, that works. Yeah, I like that. So how's it going, guys? How have you been surviving the heat with the kids?
Speaker 2:Well, actually I was going to say so I have. My kids are both in two different schools, two different school boards. So TDSB stayed open that's crazy and my youngest school board actually just shut down. So we just kind of packed up and we squatted at nicole's house because she's got a pool. So I was like we're coming over she's like what are you doing tomorrow?
Speaker 3:and I was like why?
Speaker 2:village man. It takes a village. That's gonna be like the general premise, but like really friends that you can just laugh at the absurdity of motherhood with, and I would not have picked a better person to hang out poolside with yeah, I mean, even before we started, you guys were already having your like conversation.
Speaker 3:I was just laughing in the behind the scene here and I'm like, wow, this is yeah, like that was probably a snippet of what happens every like just through the entire duration of me and marie hanging out like we can always just find space for any conversation and at this point in our relationship, like it's funny because at one point we lived together and then at one point we didn't see each other for like 10 years.
Speaker 2:And now we have what I like to call a drive-by friendship, which is just like I see her on a weekly basis, where she just drops by my house and with a kid and like hangs out and then leaves and picks up her other kid and it's just great. It's like that's the ideal kind of friendship, where it's just it's like when you're a kid and you don't have to actually do anything or make plans, just like I'm coming over and then that's it, and it's beautiful, it's sisterhood.
Speaker 3:And it's easy. We're never obligated to do anything specific together. If we want to go out for coffee, we will. If we want to sit there and just bitch for three hours, bitch with bubble tea.
Speaker 1:That's right. Oh, I like that, the whole bubble tea thing. There was a phrase at one point, I remember just instead of people going to the bar, they were going to have bubble tea and I was like what is this a thing? It's like midnight, people are drinking bubble tea.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, like we had a tradition for a long time where we would just go and have pho, like vietnamese pho, and we call it our fun bitch or phone bitch. There we just like sit there in front of a bowl noodles and just talk about, you know, our mother-in-laws a lot.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh Just life.
Speaker 2:Just life and how complicated it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we haven't actually been for fun a long time, but we've evolved to bubble tea at the moment. But I'm sure we'll all be.
Speaker 1:With the economy. It was just like a budget, right? So wait a minute. How did you guys meet? Oh, do you want to tell it?
Speaker 2:The long and short of it is that we met through a mutual friend and both of us liked each other better than we liked that friend. So we don't talk to him anymore, but Nicole was the best thing to come out of that friendship. There we go, right.
Speaker 1:When we first met 18 years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, when we first met. Sorry, 18 years, yeah, yeah, yeah, cause we've we've been friends as long, almost as long, or just a little bit longer than I've been married, because when we met it was probably around the December and we we met, like our friend took us to the Scott Was it? Scott? I was just a dive bar.
Speaker 2:Nicole and I have a lot of things in common, but music is not one of them. There's not a lot of overlap in our musicals on it. We just don't talk about music. It's like the one topic we're like let's just not. But everything.
Speaker 3:I'm like I'm sure it wouldn't be a point of contention, but at the same time, yeah, like I was dragged to this place where I, with the music, I just wasn't feeling it. And I met this new person. I wasn't in the mood and she was like this, like Marie was like you know who is this Nicole person? She sounds awful or she seems awful because I was just not in for it. But it turned out that we actually ended up getting along very, very well. And then I was like do you want to come to my wedding, which was only a couple months later? And she was like sure, and then it's just been from there.
Speaker 1:So I'll go to a party early in life. I like that. Wow. So you guys are both, like now, living in in canada. I mean, did we live abroad? Both of you have right, no, not me. I've learned not you, nicole has, but like you've, you've done, you've gone through a lot. That's a long time. 18 years of friendships. So what? What makes a friendship last?
Speaker 3:I mean, I think that if you can make a friendship last over one of those people being 18 hours by flight away, that you can do it all. So I think it's like commonalities. We have a lot of things that we, you know, just really see eye to eye on. We have, you know, things that we love, that we share, and things that we don't, and things that and that's okay too, because I find you know what Marie finds so interesting I find I end up finding really interesting and, like we kind of we have a lot of skills that compliment each other. Like you know, she'll come over and start tossing things out of my, my wardrobe, ever so lovingly, and telling me that I have far too many yoga pants, which is fair, and telling me that I have far too many yoga pants, which is fair, but also hurtful. And then you know, and then I will skill share and be like you know, this is not.
Speaker 3:I had a knit. I taught her knitting. I taught her knitting just last week and she's doing great Knitting. Oh my gosh, that's fun.
Speaker 2:No, for sure. I think it is about commonalityality. I think it's also about, like, just honoring our differences too. And yeah, we compliment each other quite a bit and it's so funny because I've sort of brought nicole into my work environment and been like here, come, come, do this thing, come voluntold to do things for the community, and it's so hilarious to be people like oh my god, I met your sister and I'm like I'm an only child, yeah, sister. And they're like oh, your sister, and it's like I take it as a compliment because it's like that's great, but like no, we'll be standing right beside each other and like, yes, we're both biracial, but no, we don't look alike.
Speaker 3:And oh, but by far the best is standing like in meeting marie's in-laws for the very first time just before she got married, and her father was like it's so great to meet father-in-law, father-in-law other sorry, but I didn't know father, he would know father-in-law said it's so great to meet Marie's sister. And I'm like you literally know she's not, she doesn't have a, she's an only child, right, like she's marrying your son, don't?
Speaker 2:you know no clue it's a compliment, it's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there we go it's like you guys mesh so well that everyone thinks like nicole, you're part of the family already, you've already just you know, you just fit in like a glove right yeah, I think that's anything.
Speaker 3:Marie and I like our friendship has evolved past just being friends, like we are very much family. Her kids are, you know my, uh, my nieces very much, so one of them is my goddaughter, but like they call me, my, their aunt, you know my, uh, my nieces very much, so one of them is my goddaughter, but like they call me my, their aunt, you know my, uh, my kids call her aunt marie, like it's just, it's, that's where it is, yeah no, that's so great.
Speaker 1:So what did you guys do for your 40th birthday? Start things off like, ah, let's do anything crazy.
Speaker 2:Remember I don't remember my 40th. I remember my 41st was a bigger deal. Just because of like I don't know, I didn't make a big deal of my 40th, but my 41st I celebrated in Mexico, so that was a bigger deal for me. But yeah, my 40th was still. I guess we were a little, still a little close to COVID, ish.
Speaker 3:You know, like we're still still dealing with that Right, still dealing with that right, so not as big of an opportunity yeah, I uh, I actually celebrated my 40th when I was still living in the uk, but I was exiting the uk, so it was a little bit like normally I don't do big birthdays for myself, I just I'll get together with friends, but don't make a huge deal of it. But it was a huge deal that time just because I was also exiting um and moving back to canada. So I had, like, all my friends in the UK got together, we went day drinking which is like definitely my forte and ended up how early did you start? Oh, in the UK. You know, in the UK there is never such a thing as too early to start. Oh, my gosh, I think probably around 10 am, and then, you know, probably I think we capped out probably about 7.30. That was enough. So, yeah, but we were doing shots on at, like the gay club at, you know, 6 pm.
Speaker 1:So wow, you definitely started the year off like was a bang right for sure. So you know why we're talking about like you living in the UK. What was that like? Like raising your kids in the UK? What was that like Like raising your kids in the UK. You know that experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean we really loved it. It was a little bit of a like crazily enough a culture shock, because we had moved to the UK after living in Shanghai for five years. So being so used to Asian culture and then moving back into more Anglo culture was actually shocking, despite the fact that we're Canadian ourselves. And just because, like as much as the UK is definitely obviously English friendly, it's not Canada. It's very different. Their systems are different. The way that some of them interact are very different.
Speaker 3:I remember going into the grocery store in my first week and they said, like are you all right? And I was like, why do I not look all right? What's your problem? But like, that's just like the general greeting. But I didn't know what to do or how to take him and like, so learning those little like things on the side was was fun and challenging. My kids obviously were very fish out of water because you know everyone had expected them to act a certain way. Coming from asia, when it's like, nope, there's still very much canadian kids, you're not going to find very much obedience out of them. Like, they just have that streak. And no, they don't fully speak Mandarin, sadly. And no, they're not especially good at math.
Speaker 1:So like the whole stereotype.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh right, yeah, yeah but we, we absolutely loved the UK. We were there over COVID and we still kind of feel like we didn't have enough of it. We did get a chance to explore all over the country, which was lovely, but I mean we were very comfortable there. The winters were not awful like they are here.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to remember, like what Nicole said about whether or not you've raised your kids abroad, or if it was just I raised them here.
Speaker 2:Raised them here, okay, but I mean I raised them here, but I mean I raised them here while being an entrepreneur, so I didn't have mat leave, so that was its own like little thing. You know, to have back to back pregnancies and then just sort of like have like two babies in the crib and then you're like typing out emails, like it was just a little bit chaotic.
Speaker 1:Wow yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I don't know if you want to talk about this, but I watched one of your reels and you said that you were talking about your experience with childbirth and how you had some complications. So I watched a bit of that and I mean I think that's really brave of you you know what I mean to to to take that step. I guess the challenge is a motherhood like even just having a child right when there's some complications with that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean, talk about that, or sure, yeah, I mean I was. Uh. I always tell my friends who don't have kids like the kids are fine. The systems around motherhood are ghetto, like all of those systems. Every piece of it is just. It doesn't make any sense and it would just be so much easier to be a parent if those systems were a little bit more concise. But the first one being like how we handle birth in Canada or I guess the system as a whole is a little bit weird.
Speaker 2:I had complications with both my pregnancies. With my first one it was a little bit more medical. I actually ended up being hospitalized for a month before delivering and then I delivered a month early and then I went back to the hospital because I had some complications and that was a whole thing, because it's like we don't recognize the fourth trimester. I always tell people it's like if you broke your arm and then I put it in a cast, your arm's still broken. So if you just delivered a baby three days ago, even though you're technically not pregnant, you're pregnant. Your body is still very much pregnant. You are still very much in harm's way.
Speaker 2:In terms of pregnancy-related complications, they're not as common, but it can happen and I was just not prepared for how my body would react to pregnancy. And then it was a bit of a surprise to get pregnant three months later and be like here we are. You know, I was told I couldn't have kids, so it was just, everything was just very like. We wanted them, we tried for the first one and then it was just. I just didn't think it was going to happen so quickly and so effortlessly, given everything.
Speaker 2:And then with the second pregnancy, that was a little bit more complicated and we had an awful, awful experience with the doctor who delivered the baby. She's been accused of all kinds of things and being investigated by the college or was being investigated for gross negligence with regards to like 2,500 women who got exposed to certain things. But yeah, I had an awful experience with her and I, you know, after seeing that article come out, I wanted to share my experience because, yeah, childbirthing is challenging enough but it's more mental than physical and I can say that having like extra stuff, like a sketchy doctor or like weird experiences like that, just they make them more complicated and it really changes the way you walk into motherhood because obviously, if you're walking in with some trauma. It's stuff you have to deal with and unpack, as you're also raising human beings and trying to get yourself together and heal and all these other things. It's just a lot. It's just a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you said you had complications with both your children. So was it like did you have a condition that prevented you from having an easy childbirth?
Speaker 2:Like uh, I developed postpartum preeclampsia with my first and most of the time it's preeclampsia. It's a condition where, like they don't know what causes it, but it's like the placenta doesn't quite attach to the wall properly and essentially the body starts thinking the placenta is a foreign object, you know, and it starts attacking it and the immune system. But, like, all of your major organs and all of the baby's major organs go through the placenta. So if your body's attacking itself, it's basically shutting down all your major organs. So that was with the first pregnancy and then I developed it with the second one.
Speaker 2:Obviously they knew they were like there's a good chance you're going to develop it.
Speaker 2:So they knew what they were looking for. But with the first one it was like the prize you have to go back to the hospital because you're having a hard time breathing, you know, and you can't walk and it was just, it was a lot. But yeah, I think that that's the thing that probably surprised me about motherhood the most, because I mean, even in the books I was reading I was really reading a lot of like woo-woo books I really wanted to have like a home birth. I wanted to like Nicole and I we both are big, like we do not like hospitals, and she had a home birth and I was actually living with her when she had her own birth and I was like I want a home birth and I bought a pool and I was like ready to give birth in my living room and with no intervention, and I had every intervention, almost every intervention possible, and it was just like that, that dream of having my like a low intervention pregnancy just went out the window.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's your body surrender to whatever is gonna happen yeah, oh so, speaking about home birth, the cool.
Speaker 1:How is that having a home birth? Do you remember? Like I mean, when it comes to birth stories, like when people tell you like wow, I had no idea it could be like that. Right, that's the thing that we yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So for me, like like Marie said, I'm not a huge fan of hospitals. I kind of feel like that's where only sick people go and I feel like in pregnancy unless you have complications leading up or whatever, that you are not a sick person like you're a very well person and so medical right, exactly. And so I was really gung ho on having a midwife and having a home birth, and my family was not, but that's okay, cause it wasn't their experience, but my husband was supportive, so that's really kind of all I needed. And when I went into labor I didn't know I was in labor and the only reason I really kind of knew I was in labor is when Ben, my husband, started buzzing around the house and being like just like preparing, you know, calling like Jen, our other friend, to pick up the dog, like Marie knew about it, like everybody, and I'm just like what's happening. But then, yeah, then I had a home birth in my bedroom with my lovely midwife, who also didn't think that I was in labor until she saw me, and then she was like, nope, you definitely are. And then I mean I didn't do any, you know, training on breathing or any hypnotherapy or anything like that no Lamaze classes, no, I just kind of went with it and I'm lucky that I have a very high pain tolerance, like that's something that I just have always had. So it was a great experience. He was out in 12 hours and healthy and happy and, you know, I was also very aware that if something was to go wrong, I was only a certain like five minutes away from an actual hospital. I could get there and we were prepared for that possibility. But no, very lucky, everything went through fine and in China I didn't have the luxury of being able to have a home birth. My second one I had in Shanghai and we had to be in a hospital it's by the government and it went as expected. I wasn't able to, you know, be in the birthing positions that I wanted to be. That made me comfortable. It was all about kind of more based around the doctor and how comfortable they were in me giving birth and which was very different from having my midwife, which was all mostly centered the care around me and making me comfortable.
Speaker 3:Regardless. Oren came in a good four hours um, which was, you know, very uncomfortable, but he did come out and, yeah, like in less than 24 hours I was walking myself out of that chinese hospital while they chased me because they didn't think that I could walk but I could and they chased me down the stairs until I got into my car and was like, sign the papers. And I was like, oh yeah, I have to do paperwork, for you know, when I give birth. But, yeah, I, I love my home birth. I would have, I would if I had any more kids. Um, I do that, I do not want, would probably. I would just say I'm like the answer is no, the answer is no more children. We're good.
Speaker 1:We're good, yes yes, I've read you know what I was reading stats guys, and they say, like in our time now, like in our generation, we're having less kids, and I think there's a lot of factors that come into play with that. I was reading this article and, yeah, I think we're women are having children old, older, later in life, and they're also focusing more on their careers. So, as both career women, why do you think that's the case? Like it's so different from like 50 years ago.
Speaker 2:How old were you, nicole? When you had five, I was 28. Okay, 33. So we're on the older side of things.
Speaker 3:I guess it's funny because, like in my family, I was definitely like over the hill, Like my family was like, you know, because all the women in my family before I came along and I'm the only female in my generation of my family all of them had their kids before they were 20. And you know, they were far more invested in me having a child than me getting married. So and I was like, no, thank you, I'll have them when I'm ready. And so, yeah, 28. Oh, the declining birth rate and all women are having children older. Why is that a bad thing? We have so many people in this world, so many kids who are being unloved. Why do we need to pump that into that system more? And also, why is it not okay to give women the space to live their lives before they start families?
Speaker 2:I was going to say a big part. I tell my kids I'm here to raise you, to help you learn how to be, like I can't tell you what to do your whole life. And like for me to even have a resemblance of like anecdotes to share with my kids, I needed to live my life right. I've done the good, the bad, the ugly. I've done all kinds of things. I've had all kinds of experiences and I can share with them the learnings right. And and I tell the kids all the time like it's like fuck around and find out right, there's two ways for you to learn about things in this world is you can experience them yourself, for better or for worse, or you can learn through people that love you, that that care for you, that want to share their experiences with you, so that you can sort of like reap the benefit of just knowing without having to like go through the pain of all of those things.
Speaker 2:But like for me, you know, without getting into specifics for my mom's privacy, she didn't have me until she was almost 40. And so, like for me, there was never that pressure to have my kids early. I didn't even know if I wanted to have children. It really wasn't until I met my partner and I was a stepmom for like eight years or no, six years before I was ever a mother. So I kind of got little glimpses. I mean, stepmom is a completely different role, like you're more of like a supporting, cool aunt type of thing, especially as they get older and they're not at your house as much. But like, yeah, I got glimpses of what it looked like to be in a family unit and I really liked it.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think that's that's the thing. Like it's difficult. The hardest part about parenting, like I said, is those, the structures and the, the systems that make it very difficult. Like you know, school's done at three o'clock but all your workplaces are done at five and like bullshit, like that. Or daycare is impossible to get into and like all this crap, like that's the hard part. But the kids themselves, like I'm always like it's it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Like you have the best days you've ever had and then the hardest days you'll ever have.
Speaker 3:Let me tell you yes, absolutely, and like I don't. I think one of the key things that you said is, like you know, sharing experiences, and I just think that women who are older have more experiences to share, like they have more lived experiences. They have so much more in-depth education knowledge like to share when parenting, which I think is so valuable because you know, kids, having kids sometimes it just doesn't always work out and those people grow up to be older adult parents and yes, they had now are able to live their lives when they're in their 40s, but then they do stuff that's like no, you should really only do that when you're 20.
Speaker 2:And I will say, like there's nothing that kicks up trauma, quite like having a kid, because, like you're kind of you're either you're either like repeating stuff that you enjoyed from your childhood or you're potentially remedying things that you didn't enjoy.
Speaker 2:And so if you're not ready to face mirror versions of yourself and recognize that they are not you, so it's like you know there's something there where it's like you're there to guide them, you have an opportunity to kind of like resolve your own stuff.
Speaker 2:You can't force them to do things, right, and so it's just like it's this, it's this dance, and you have to have a certain amount of maturity to understand that and that it's coming for you. Like I've learned so much about myself for my kids and they've learned about themselves through watching me as well. Right, we're just kind of like bouncing off of each other, but I think if I was in my 20s, like I don't know, I wasn't ready for that, and like not dogging anyone who has kids when they're young, or you know, we all have our own journey. But I remember kind of, like you know, having my first and being pregnant at 33 and people saying, oh, you know, having your kids young means you have more energy and I was like I guess. But I mean, I'm trading off energy, I guess, for wisdom, so I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1:I'm okay with that. You know it's piling off, because I had another guest on the show and she had her first child in her 30s and then her second and her fourth and I think she was better prepared for her second child at 39, well, 39, 40 than she was in her 30s. Because, like you said, even though you have the energy, you don't have the wisdom and I think is, then it's probably the best that, because you're talking about trauma and that's something, um, I can't relate because I do not have kids. But I know from talking to my sister that she said if you don't have those things resolved, they come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you find like there's certain things that did come up where you're just like, oh, I didn't expect that. Or I mean, like this parenting there's. There's no one book I think nicole and I talked about that over email like there's no perfect manual book out there. I mean, you can read everything in the book about parenting, but until it actually happens.
Speaker 2:I think Nicole and I are both big on like grit and resilience, like embedding that into our kids and I mean I have two girls, she has two boys, so it's gonna look very different. Like grit and resilience look very different. But I know like for me, like I, my kids are very different from each other and one of my kids is like super, super, super sensitive. She wears everything on her sleeve, like you can tell when she's she's got big emotions, she has big feelings and you know talking to her about what it looks like when people are mean or they're bullying her, right, and and saying sort of like. And I know that my parents would have never said this to me, but I I'm like it's okay that people don't like you and it's okay that you don't like people Doesn't mean you can be mean to them, but not everyone has to like you and you don't have to like everyone, right, but you just stay out of their way and as an adult it's no different.
Speaker 2:You're going to meet people that you're not going to like, but that's a different story. So it's like making that differentiation. Being like this is totally normal. It's totally normal for you to meet people and be like these really aren't my people. But that's a very different experience, than you know, than being mean. So it's like sort of separating the wheat from the chaff so that she can sort of be like it's okay that this person doesn't like me, but what's not okay is that they're being rude to me, right, and so even making that differentiation, like that's not something that I would have gotten as a kid. It would have been like they're jealous of you, right, are they, mommy, are they? And it's like no.
Speaker 2:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:No, no, yeah, it's just like not the talk that you want, right? So that's supposed to like build your confidence. But I think what you said to your daughter is so true, but I think we had this conversation. I true, but I think, um, we had this conversation. I just remember this going after, but you guys were talking about how your kids are learning like their strengths, like in terms of like personality. I think you were saying, nicole, like one of your sons knows, he's learned how to get what he wants, like with certain things, yeah, and do you remember? I think you briefly said that last time you know, like.
Speaker 1:Learning at a young age like this is how I can get what I want.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, I mean, my youngest has always been like adorable, and he came out adorable and he would charm the pants off of anybody. And I remember, before he even started school, he was always very well acquainted with all the teachers that were going to be his eventual teachers and they were just like we have to work out, look out for him. And they eventually ended up having a meeting about him being like listen, you got to look out for him and he will use every charm in the book. He'll bat his little eyelashes, he'll smile his little smile and he will get out of it. And it's so true, like Oren is a master at that kind of privilege, very cute privilege. I feel like now he's pre-teen, it's starting to rub off a little bit, because you're like no, now you're just smelly, you're not as cute. He still has it in there, though, where people are like, look at him, he's adorable, and you're like, no, no, no, don't trust, don't trust it, don't trust it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have one of them. I mean both my kids are really cute, but again, they're a year apart and one of them enjoys performing femininity a lot more than the other, right, she's like the girliest of girls, right. So it's like I, I mean I I lap it up and I give her, like some of my old costume, jewelry and stuff, and like she's very much the girliest of girl. And my other kid is not as interested in leaning into femininity. It's pretty neutral across the board, you know like, and she really doesn't care.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting to see how people react to them and so sometimes those reactions have a bunch of bias that we have as a society. You know, like one kid will do something, it'll be perceived as maybe less annoying or less offensive, and then the other kid will do it and it'll be seen as more aggressive, just because, like, one isn't leaning into femininity as much. In fact, a lot of times one of my kids gets misgendered as a boy. I mean they all kind of look the same, right, but I mean she's got short hair. They both have short hair, but again, one of them has a little bit more of a generic look and yeah, it's very interesting to see how, how a potential boy would be treated versus a very feminine girl.
Speaker 3:I mean I don't love that, like I don't love that juxtaposition, and just I think at the end of their kids, right, they should, they should, yeah well, because they feel it too right, because I remember there was one part where your eldest was like upset that a lot of the attention was focused on the youngest because, oh yeah, so cute people will walk up and be like she's so cute and then not even comment.
Speaker 2:Oh the other one I'm telling you, I'm like they're both very, they're just, they just they don't even look alike. I would argue that Nicole and I look more alike than mine. Yeah, probably, you know, and this is I mean both Nicole and I are interracial and so, like our kids are as well. So it's just one of those, like you know, throw dice in the thing, give it a shake and we end up with whatever. I have one kid that's got curly, sandy brown hair and blue eyes. I've got another one who's got straight brown hair and brown eyes and they don't look anything alike.
Speaker 2:But it's just very interesting to see how the kids are treated by others, and I think part of our job as parents is to remind our kids who they are, because we're witnessing them at in multiple areas. Right, we, we've gotten to know them before they went to school. We get to see them with their friends, we get to see them with family, we get to see them in their best times, in their worst times and I think, as we get older even myself I've experienced that when you have that like little crisis where you're like who am I and what am I supposed to do in this world? And like what's my purpose and like, oh, like this whole thing. It's nice if you, your parents, are paying attention, it's nice for them to be able to remind you, kind of like this is who you are, you know, don't, don't let this get you down diva tonight. Glamour for your ears.
Speaker 3:This is 40, a female perspective yeah, and to be accepting of that as much as possible. I mean, my sons have evolved through their experiences for sure, their experiences of living overseas and multiple moves and you know these situations where they've been forced to create brand new friends groups for themselves or like I've had to create for them, and they carry it forward either or and it's been challenging at times for them and it's really molded who they are. I have one who you know started off as very much as an extrovert, easy to make friends, and he's kind of gone a little bit more introverted because you know, the timing of our moves has been more difficult for him at his age stage versus my youngest one where he's always been put in situations where it's like instant friends, versus my youngest one where he's always been put in situations where it's like instant friends. So he has those kind of easier times at being an extrovert and joining things and being social.
Speaker 3:Now it could also be a part of stages because you know, marie has younger kids, my kids are teen and pre-teen and hormones come into play, all kinds of stuff comes. I don't I can't even handle it like male friendships are completely different, completely different to male yeah, like a lot of boys these days are very, completely fine with their friendships are done through screens, like that's how they conduct their friendships, and they don't necessarily hang out as much anymore, um, or if they do again, it's through a screen, um, and that's very different from how I grew up, where you know we would get together. We and I still very much get together with my friends. I see marie every week.
Speaker 1:it would be weird for me if I it is weird if you guys were doing like zoom calls and you know, like having no sharing yeah, egregious amount of meme sharing.
Speaker 3:That happens on all platforms if I don't hear from her for like two days and I'm like she dead, so there's something wrong. You good, you're good, you're alive. I haven't seen a little boo-boo in like 24 hours. Yeah, and just being accepting of like you know the stage that they are, because you'll get a lot of comparisons in parenting. You'll get a lot of people being like, oh well, mine does this, yours doesn't do this, and mine acts this way and yours doesn't.
Speaker 3:And you know, for a while I was really worried that my kids weren't normal, right, but like they're normal in their way, which is exactly where they need to be. And I think what? I think maria was you. That was like you. You meant you mentioned my eldest and like how chill he was and how like he seems very confident, yeah, mature. And I was like, yeah, you're right, like he doesn't need to. He's not the preening type of boy. He doesn't get up in the morning and 45 minutes early and make sure his hair is right, make sure his clothes is right. He's like he's a kid, that a 14 year old kid who's not at that stage yet.
Speaker 1:And I'm OK with that and that's normal too like to just, you know, be easy in who he is. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've talked a lot about like motherhood and like your own trials and tribulations, but, like career, like I mean, you do work during you know the day and so how do you handle that? Like you know the challenges of, like you know, work and then balancing your home life?
Speaker 2:My work experience has been all over the place. So I mean, when I had the kids, I was an entrepreneur and that was like it had. It had pros and cons and I mean I think they were kind of the double edged sword right. So it's like it's like pro no structure, con no structure. My day could be whatever, but then it could be whatever. And so, like you know boundaries and limits and all that stuff with your work, like kids are boundary and limitless at that age because they just need you, and like, of course, your business is boundless and limitless at that age as well. So it's like it was really hard juggling the two.
Speaker 2:But when the pandemic hit so my kids were about like two and a half and one and a half and two and a half when the pandemic hit and I was already used to being at home with them and they weren't in daycare. They've never been in daycare and I remember I got my first corporate job just for like it was like an eight week contract that ended up lasting six months. And there's a couple of things that I noticed. Like one was like watching other people lose their minds about having their kids at home and me being like, oh, it's hard or something. I knew it was hard, but it was just the reality of watching successful people just lose their minds. They're like, what am I going to do with these kids? How am I going to do this? And I was like I've normalized this thing that people are losing their minds about and it kind of gave me grace to kind of be like this was really hard and I should be easier on myself and be proud of what I was able to accomplish during that crazy time.
Speaker 1:But how were you able to accomplish it? Cause you said, like the whole structure thing, did that go out the window, like I mean, like they're, they're a year apart and then you're managing, you're wiping away the you know, sending an email to a client, yeah, I mean, my health was really hard.
Speaker 2:I'm really lucky that I have a really good like between my parents and my in-laws. I have a lot of support I think more support than most people that I know. My parents are retired. Like I went back to the hospital for two weeks after having my first, so literally I had a baby. I went back to the hospital for two weeks after having my first, so literally I had a baby. I went home for three days and then I had to go back to the hospital for two weeks without the baby. Right, you're not like dragging a baby with you to the hospital.
Speaker 2:So my mother-in-law actually took my baby and like raised it for the first two weeks of life, and that was hard. And then, like you know, we did catering and so when I had to be on site somewhere, we always had a friend or somebody would come help. A friend of mine who was training to be a PSW, she came in and she helped a lot and she was just like sometimes it'd be like hey, do you want me to come over, just so you could take a shower, and I'm like, oh my god, yes, you know, and it's, it's like it takes a village and of course, nicole was, I think, still in China, potentially. I believe.
Speaker 3:No, I was in the UK during but it's.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting to kind of like. Like I have different markers of like what friends were there, based on like where they were and where I was in my life too. And then now I work for a non-profit where, like I from home, I have a very flexible schedule. I finally have found a place where having children and being able to demonstrate my ability to manage all of the crazy things that come with kids the schedule, the home, everything those are assets and they should be.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of times employers look at women of a certain age as a liability. It's like, oh, you're going to have to dip out early to grab your kids. Or like kids are sick and it's like, yeah, my kids are sick, I still get shit done. And it's like, yeah, I have to dip out to go get my kids. But like, again, unless you're doing work that requires you to be on site, like my husband's a chef, so he has to be on site all my work can be done remotely and I do it remotely. And it's like there's no obligation for me to go into the office or for me to show face, just for some arbitrary, like corporate culture.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile, like my kids are in daycare and I'm spending like crazy amounts of money, um, but yeah, like everyone keeps asking me, like what are you gonna do this summer? And I'm like my kids are gonna be here, just like they are every summer. You know like it's changed. It's like we're just continuing what we've been doing and like now they're they're old enough that they can pour their own cereal and they can watch tv and they can, you know, they can read a book and they can, like they can, take care of themselves to some extent. I'm in my office, it's like in my bedroom, it's like one door over and we're in a small condo. It's just. You know it works, but I know it doesn't work for everyone, but it works.
Speaker 3:I left. I left a 13, well, yeah, 13 year career in television and radio to be an expat for my husband's career. So we moved over to China for his job and when we got there I was what's known as a tie tie, which is, you know, women who lunch, like ladies who lunch, we don't. We do something. I have to keep myself busy or else I go crazy. So I had the opportunity to become an entrepreneur and I like evolved myself through business over there. I, you know, I started writing for a magazine, I became a columnist and I created my own graphic design giftables business, which was crazy, and I made these pillows, which were you know.
Speaker 3:I kind of wish that I discovered my business in that earlier because it was really lucrative and really fun. At one point I had like 300 pillows piled up in my doorway and people were like what's going on and I just like pillow business at Christmas. It was crazy and my kids would be like you know what is this? And I'm like it's mommy's job and they're like job, what do you mean job? I thought your job was going to the shopping mall and I was like well, that is also my job years. It was kind of stop and start, because I was like, well, do I start a career? Are we going to move? Will I have to end my career as soon as I started? So I would just kind of do things that brought me joy, which I really appreciate, having the ability and the privilege to be able to do that over the time that I was away.
Speaker 3:Not everybody has that luxury, but it kind of gave me the space to figure out stuff that I really love to do, and I was volunteering, which I found really fulfilling. And then when I came back here I was like, well, how hard is it going to be to bust back into an industry that I haven't traditionally been in in 10 years? And thankfully I had a friend who was really motivated to get me into her company and so I've been working with her for two years and it's just a small company and we work remotely, which, again, it's so appreciative to me to be able to work remotely because I get to still be here when I need to be here for the boys, I get to be flexible and I get to, you know, have that luxury of being able to pick them up from school when they need to, while still being able to make meetings that I need to, like. I appreciate the whole businesses being allowing their employees to go remote when they need to, because you know, let's be honest, we don't all need to be face to face. We all zoom anyway half the time.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, um, and it's been interesting being back in in a traditional like a work life or work um environment over the last two years, which is, you know, even now I'm just kind of resist. How do I get back to crafting only? How do I get back to lunching only? But, you know, more knitting projects, more knitting projects. Well, I'm the crochet queen. You insisted on knitting, which I still don't understand. But I'll turn you to the dark side soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, feel one needle wander.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my God. But the thing is, though, like when you work from home, I think, do you find like you get so comfortable now that you work from home that like meeting up in person is a thing? You know what I mean, I think. Do you feel like we've become complacent because of technology in that sense?
Speaker 2:you know, I don't think the technology. Technology should be about efficiency, but it doesn't replace the face-to-face. So like again, I work with, like I'm on a team with three other women. We're kind of like I think I'm the only one who doesn't go to the office because it's a Don Mills and Eglinton and I'm not about that and not about that commute. Our, I guess, customers, we're nonprofits, so our participants, they're all entrepreneurs. So if everything was in person, if I was meeting with everyone in person, it would be also annoying for them too. So it's like there's efficiency, it doesn't replace the face to face. We still get together from time to time, we give opportunities.
Speaker 2:I'm the community manager, so I do a lot of events and stuff like that, like farmer's market, for example, on the weekends. But I find that there's a lot more understanding around what that looks like. So I'll give an example. I am a salaried employee. I work 9 to 5, monday to Friday, technically on paper, but I co-run a farmer's market. That's on Saturdays. It's like, okay, my husband now works on Saturdays, so I dragged my kids to a farmer's market and my boss was there and instead of it being like a can I bring my kids, like I'm bringing my kids and, like you know, she's literally playing, connect four with them and like, again there's an opportunity for there to be like an ecosystem that includes the kids.
Speaker 2:I've also seen that like even in my I'm sidetracking, but like even in my friendships some of some of my friends who don't have children I've seen them be bring the kids and it's really nice because it's like it gives you that family feeling where it's not my kids aren't like some dirty little side accessory that I can like I don't know yeah, no, and like sometimes you have friends where it's like, especially if it's like drinking friends or like partying friends.
Speaker 2:You're like maybe I only see you when I don't have my children but generally speaking, like as I'm getting older, I'm prioritizing people and business ventures and opportunities that kind of allow me to show up as my whole self, including being a mom, as opposed to situations where it's like you know you work for corporate and then they're like, yeah, it's all great, but you're going to pretend like you don't have kids or like friendships that are only like the richness is only the depth is only there because, like you don't have your kids around you. It's like there's got to be balance there yeah, and I think it is.
Speaker 3:It is really about being efficient. Like I, I find that, since I'm able to work from home, I'm able to, you know, get my workout in. I'm able to take the kids to school and make their lunch. I'm not running around crazy, being like I have to get, like on whatever ttc or drive through traffic for an hour to get to my workplace. Like that just takes so much more out of you. I can give so much more to my work when I am comfortable and when I'm not tired or stressed out, and when I know that I have an employer that has my back, knowing that, like I will still get my work done.
Speaker 3:Thank you, but you've afforded me the flexibility to do that. So I mean, I think that it's really an old school thinking that we all need to be in an office face-to-face all the time. Of course, it's good to get together with your team and, like I said, we do get together my team as well occasionally but the reality is, is that a lot of the work people? You know we don't live all in one spot, so my clients are all over North America and some in America and some in the UK. So it's like, what am I supposed to do? Fly out every week to meet people face to face, like when I need to? No, because, like that's not the kind of job that I would be able to hold with my family situation.
Speaker 2:So I was gonna say, and like Nicole and I a little bit different. Like my husband stays local, Nicole's husband travels a lot, but we both have partners who work outside the house a lot. So the fact of the matter is like someone has to be someone needs to supervise the children.
Speaker 2:I need to make sure my kids are eating more than ramen three times a day and so it's nice to be able to have a career because they're like that's, that's a lot of like you know, like. And no, no disrespect to anyone who wants to be a stay- Cause. I'm like that's, that's a lot of like you know like. And no, no disrespect to anyone who wants to be a stay at home mom or who can afford to be a stay at home mom. I think that's great too. Like it's, it's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Whatever works for you works for you. But I know, you know, for me it's like I need. Motherhood is part of who I am, but it's not all of who I am, and I wanted to make sure that there were still pieces of me that existed outside of my kids and there's room for, you know, my passions and my learnings and the things I like to do, like I freelance, model and I, you know, there's all these other things that I want to do, that I can do, that are outside of motherhood, that I think again, enrich those experiences that I can share with my kids.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it makes you a whole person that you're able to then, like you, dial that down to your children and through your parenting. Like you know, you have to have a life outside of just your home family life sometimes to make keep yourself sane.
Speaker 2:So otherwise your kids are going to be 18 and you're going to fall apart and you're going to have your existential crisis of like who am I? What am I because? Why am I? We are hyphenated beings, um, and we move through this world with all of those different things and those different titles, and motherhood's just one that gets added on and it's. It's an intense one for 18 years, but it never really goes away and, at the same time, it's not like the basis of who you are as a person yeah, it's always been just a part of me.
Speaker 3:It's never been me right, like it's something that I elected to do for myself, like for ourselves my husband and I. But it's never been. This is what I am now, you know. And it's funny because, like, when you become a mom, a lot of people want to put you into a mom, mom role. So, like when I, when I started doing writing, they're like, well, you're going to be a mom blogger and I was like, what's that supposed to mean? Because I mean, I I am by no means an expert on parenting. Don't look at me for that. Right, like I am, I have no training. So, like I'm not an expert, I actually have a lot more opinions on many, many other things other than just being a mother.
Speaker 1:This is not the entirety of who I am, so so what do you say to someone who is in their 40s and they're considering becoming a parent Like? What is your advice?
Speaker 3:Like but you're old, no, no, I'm joking, you're tired, don't do it, though. I mean, everybody starts their family when they feel like they need to or, you know, when they're mentally right, yeah yeah, and I mean I have friends that are definitely starting to have babies now, or are having their their second or third now, and if that's the right for them, then that's right for them. I think it comes with their own challenges, though, because I mean, your body is not the same as it was when you're much younger. You know, your level of tiredness is the same. Your, your level of patience is not necessarily the same. And when? When?
Speaker 3:uh, at this stage, when we're starting like like perimenopause to start creeping in, yeah yeah, like sometimes I lose my damn mind and I can't even imagine being pregnant losing my damn mind or like you know, or like you know having a newborn and losing a damn mind. That's just personally for me. But I say, you know, go for it. If this is what you want, it doesn't matter what age you are, go for it, you'll be happy. Be confident in your choice.
Speaker 2:I think people are really risk averse as they get older. So I think the only piece of advice I would give is like it's never going to feel right, you're never going to feel ready. I mean, maybe some people are, but I've heard people be like we're not ready, we're not in the right house, we're not in the right and I'm like never will be. I don't know. Like I ran a business and I will say running a business is very similar to having kids, a family like structurally it's very, there's a, there's a lot of overlap there and it is your baby in a way. And you know when you don't know what you don't know. When you walk in with a little bit of ignorance, sometimes it works in your advantage because you're like I didn't know, no, it's not me. Then you find out really quickly like oh shit, you know. Like.
Speaker 2:I feel like if, if you, if you like, really researched it, like if you really like, know the ins and outs, like you will never know the ins and outs, because every kid is different, every pregnancy is different, every like everything is different. My kids are a year apart and I can't think of two more different kids. The other thing too is like your parenting style, like my parenting style. What is your parenting style? Oh god, helicopter mom no.
Speaker 2:I would consider myself a free-range parent. I kind of observe what they're doing and like make edits as I need to, as opposed to I try not to like there's some proactive pieces of parenting and then there's some reactive, and then there's just sort of like observing, because a lot of it is like if I'm like careful, careful, be careful, it's like that's not helpful.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, I have to say we were at a park this is I was visiting in from China, or no, from the UK I think and her Marie's eldest was just, let's say, two, and I remember she was up on this jungle gym, like at the top, and I'm looking at her and I'm looking at Marie and I'm like, should she be up there? Marie's like yeah, it's fine, she likes to climb.
Speaker 2:I'm like okay, like that's cool, right. Meanwhile, like so many other moms would be like underneath them, being like, oh my god, they're like, be careful, hold on part of it is like it's. That particular kid is like she had a lot of confidence and the last thing I want to do is project my insecurity and fears of her inability to do something onto her. Sometimes I'll be like you you feeling safe up there, you feeling good? Yeah, I'm feeling good. Okay, do you have a plan on how to get it down? Like asking questions like that instead of just being like careful, careful Now, my youngest would never dream of doing that. She'd get up on one step and then just be like mom, I can't get down. And so it's like you have to kind of adjust, which is hard when they're both kind of in the same stages but they have very different needs.
Speaker 3:So a lot of it's like you kind of have to split yourself in half and be like oh, gotta be here and here, you know yeah, and I've mentioned to you how, like you know, there's so many different parenting playbooks out there about how to raise kids and like, yeah, sure, some of them work, um, they don't work in entirely, some of them don't work. Like it's just, you can take bits and pieces of everything, but there's never going to be a whole plan on how to raise a child, because at any given time, I cause my children, children, trauma, and I know that I'm just like, whatever I do, you'll be in therapy because of something we've done 100%.
Speaker 3:I'm past the point of you know. I'm like yes, you're not, you're okay.
Speaker 2:Awareness is a battle, though you know like knowing we're going to mess them up somewhere.
Speaker 1:What about the school system? Right? I mean, I don't know. I think, with technology, we're living in a different time. So I think, like you said to me, Nicole, you do the best you can, and I think the one thing I read, too, is is no right way to parents. Even if you have the information, there will be something that contradicts that article in another article, or one parent will say this, and then you know.
Speaker 3:So it makes it really I feel like the only difference between a parent who's just out there parenting and like a person like who is a parenting expert, is that like someone took all of their stumbles and falls and put them into a book and the other people didn't right, instead I pour, I pour all my stumbles and falls into murray right and be like I fucked up, and that's it. Nobody. Nobody knows what, necessarily what they're doing, because every child is so different and you have to parent them in completely different ways. Um, sometimes and my way won't work the same for my boys as it would if I was trying to parent marie's kids and vice versa- like you know, you do have evidence of what a child, like you've experienced your childhood.
Speaker 2:So you do have evidence of things that, like you, have an idea of what, what worked and what didn't work. And I think this is where, like you, get into like stage mom situations or people who are, like projecting under their children. It's like they are different than you, yeah, but you do have the opportunity to sort of share with them things that you enjoyed and, if they take to it, run. If they don't take to it, keep looking, keep working with them, listen to what they. Like. I think kids are a lot smarter than we give them credit for.
Speaker 2:Like I, I went to Montessori school when I was really really small and I always, I always joked that like Montessori is like supervised neglect. You know, you're basically like here's a stepstool, do it for yourself, and that's I mean. Like you know, come for me. But that's basically what it is right, it's not a bad thing, but it's about teaching them self-sufficiency. You mentioned helicopter parenting.
Speaker 2:To me, again, that's like it's clipping their wings, it's like stopping them from being able to see what the limits of their own possibilities are without you. My job is to encourage them to become themselves. It's not for me to do everything for them. Of course, if they need help, I'm here. But even the act of learning how to ask for help, which is something a lot of us, even as parents, we have to learn I know I had to learn that as an adult it's like how do I ask for help without feeling like I'm not capable? It's like it's okay, we can do that, but then we have to teach our kids how to do that stuff, how to function in society and community.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I grew up with like I grew up my grandmother raised me and she was fairly hands off. I kind of feel like she was like, well, I screwed up five other kids, so this one I'm just going to do whatever with. And I came along and I was like you know, got good marks and was in sports and she was like she, she, she parented me, but barely Cause she, just she, just let me do whatever, because I was always just kind of like that kid that always did well in whatever. And you know my kids they're not quite that and my husband is like tiger parenting, so it's like in his background, tiger parenting.
Speaker 1:I want to know what that is.
Speaker 3:Oh, basically it's this like generational trauma that pours in from specifically immigrant families who you know. Generational trauma that pours in from specifically immigrant families who, you know, struggled so hard to get to where they are now, to give you the best of life. So now you have to excel at everything and not just excel but be the best, like be the most excellent of everyone. So you know you're getting an A. Why didn't you get an A plus right, Like that, that whole mentality.
Speaker 3:And my husband grew up in that kind of environment where he was expected to. You know, he didn't get toys, he got calculus books for Christmas, Like that's just, that's true. So, and he kind of feels like, you know, if your kids aren't getting things like A's in school or they aren't like passing every you know swim test on the first try, then he's like, well, what have we done with your life? What are you doing with your life? Meanwhile, I'm just kind of like, you know, people have to be given the opportunities to fail. People have to be given the opportunities to find where their strengths lie, and it doesn't always lie in what you would hope for them, right? So him and I, we have this kind of um, interesting balance of parenting styles that we we sometimes butt heads over it and it just comes from again, like how we were raised right. So we're trying our best and hopefully our kids will try their best.
Speaker 1:That's all we can hope for, so, yeah, hearing you talk about your husband, I can relate, because I had those tiger parents and I think when you have parents like that, it does traumatize you to the point where you're like I got the a, now you want the a plus. And even when I got the a plus, you're, you want a plus plus.
Speaker 2:So yeah, my dad was a bit of a tiger parent and he was also a teacher and so academia was extremely important for him and it's it's what pulled him out of poverty. Right, it was, his key to success was through academia. So I think part of it growing up is also empathizing with your parents in a way where you're like, oh shit, I get how that got twisted that way and I get how that got manifested that way. I didn't love it at the time, didn't love spending my summers doing like math and French homework. But like I understand where it came from. And there are. There are those. There are pieces of my childhood I want to replicate with my kids. But at the same time I'm like academia is just one way of evaluating intelligence and I just don't want to get lost in the sauce of like somehow a grade two teacher's opinion on my kids, like reading and writing, is like the be all end all, because age and aptitude and all that stuff. It takes everyone their own little time to get there right.
Speaker 2:Like I struggled hard as a kid, like as a young kid, and I mean I moved provinces. I moved from New Brunswick to Ontario. I barely spoke any English when I came to this province, I certainly didn't feel comfortable in it and I barely spoke any English. When I came to this province, I certainly didn't feel comfortable in it and I went to a French school. So I didn't learn how to read and write in English until like grade seven and eight, like I was a really, really late late at the party Right. And so high school got a little bit better, college got a little bit better, university got into the honor roll. Like as I progressed it got easier for me. So I remember like my trajectory wasn't always this like perfect academic record and I was definitely like looked upon as like why aren't you getting there? And it's like I'm just. I have a little bit of that grace for my own kids who are also going through their own journey of academia and we're making changes and we're, you know, but recognizing that like this is not the only measurement of intelligence that's out there and they still have a bright future, even if they're not like or success in your kids, like yeah, the be all and end all exactly
Speaker 4:exactly diva tonight with carlene. We'll be back. Send us a message on Instagram at diva underscore tonight.
